01 Feb, 2010, Guest wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
Hi everyone – thanks for reading. I've been following mudbytes for some time but this is my first post. I'd like to share with you all some principle information about a MUD concept I've been expanding upon over the last couple of years. As the core ideas behind the MUD are at last complete, we're ready to begin piecing together a talented team of coders & builders so that we can move into the development phase.

The initial inspiration for this MUD was the HBO television show "The Wire" and the film "Traffic", both of which explore the dynamic between law enforcement agencies and the drug trade, as well as the influence of business and politics on the perpetual struggle therein. The principle concepts at work here are those of espionage, intelligence, sabotage, surveillance, and the many other alternative forms of war that exist. The game will be set initially in a sprawling and faithful rendering of present-day New York City, and this will eventually be expanded to include London, Washington D.C., and potentially a number of other locales. Our foremost goal is an essentially endless array of options for our players, and occupations will play a large part in the development of a character. Assets will be a principle facet of the MUD and will have a variety of forms, to include housing, vehicles, property, investments, and much more. We intend to convey a vivid sense of infrastructure and economy – active and effective law enforcement, and dozens of real-world retailers where thousands of items can be purchased, including such details as automobile dealerships with extensive inventories of real cars. Player-owned businesses will also be reflected with a great deal of depth.

The unvaried automation of most NPC police forces in MUDs will be replaced by a realistic system of patrol and pursuit, with arrests potentially leading to legal proceedings which can be bypassed or otherwise affected by NPC attorneys, though of course at
great cost. A detailed system of drugs, gunrunning, and varied smuggling will be present as well. Though the various modes of combat will be nearly endless, the presence of both PC and NPC police will add an interesting dynamic to this. The most combat-intensive facet of the MUD will appropriately be the military, and an ongoing conflict in the Middle East will be perhaps the most elaborate and detailed feature within the MUD for quite a while.

As the scope of this MUD makes an all-encompassing offering of our many features nearly impossible, I hope that this will reflect to a
reasonable degree the general mood and environment of the game. The essentil is, again, a functional realism and endless depth through both the variety of implemented systems as well as through the freedom we offer our players. We will be far less class-intensive, with a players' specific selection of skills over time shaping their characters' abilities. Most everything a player will be able to do can be countered either overtly or covertly, and a player can prosper as much through leisurely business ventures as they can through criminal enterprise, and as virtually every aspect of a character is upgradable, from the car that they drive, to their residence, to the cell phone or computer they use, the possibilities will be endless.

If you have coding or building experience with SMAUG derivatives and feel that you could be an asset to our team, send me a PM and we'll arrange a means of discussing the MUD further to ensure that I'm able to answer all of your questions. I'd really like to see this take shape as one of the most ambitious MUDs ever endeavored, and as we truly intend to offer a MUD experience unlike any other, we'll need all the capable help we can get, so serious inquiries only. Thanks again for reading.
02 Feb, 2010, Koron wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Hi graham,

Sounds like an interesting concept, and I'd love to check it out when it's up and running. I hope you get to develop it! Am I right in my interpretation that you're currently running a stock base, or are there already modifications?
04 Feb, 2010, Guest wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
I'm running SmaugFUSS 1.9 at current and while I've made a few essential changes, my coding abilities are somewhat lacking considering the scope of the undertaking. I have almost four notebooks full of features and other changes to be made for this MUD, but unlike most of the great coders out there, I just don't enjoy it. I've been building for about six years and I love it, so I'm hopeful that I'll be able to focus mostly on that as the environment in this MUD is going to be absolutely enormous. I think that the sheer array of things to do in this MUD and the sheer depth of most every facet of all of these things will almost necessitate a certain structure to this team, with two or three coders/builders working together on a project, and ideally with a few different projects underway at a given time. I'm also going to be handling most of the quests and campaigns, both of which will be an essential part of the game from the very beginning. I've got nearly 600 quests written (though not yet scripted) and about 70 campaigns for the various factions – most of them being cohesive and forming respective story arcs that I intend to develop much further prior to launch. Depending on how quickly I'm able to bring some coders aboard, I may begin implementing some of the quests in the near future to make a public alpha possible.
04 Feb, 2010, elanthis wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
As a piece of advice, people are generally not interested in joining teams that are just a bunch of ideas on paper. Once you have some actual progress made then you will be far more likely to find potential contributors. The problem is basically that the contributor can see you think big but has zero reason to believe that you can actually execute plans or stick with a project in the long run, which makes contributing time and effort to the project a very high-risk endeavor. Getting a fairly good chunk of your rebuild of New York actually implemented with all the fantasy bits stripped out of the codebase would be a fantastic step in this direction and would allow potential contributors to log in and at least look at the world, if not interact with it in the way you eventually want.
04 Feb, 2010, Orrin wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
I'd go even further than Elanthis and say that very few people are interested in joining teams full stop. Most people with the ability to implement your vision would rather implement their own. I'd recommend you try and partner up with one person initially, with you focusing on the traditional building side and them on the coding side. You'll have a much higher chance of successfully finding someone to work with if it's a partnership where they have equal input into design and decision making, as opposed to simply being "your project" with them as the "coder".
04 Feb, 2010, Guest wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
Orrin said:
You'll have a much higher chance of successfully finding someone to work with if it's a partnership where they have equal input into design and decision making, as opposed to simply being "your project" with them as the "coder".


Thanks for the posts. Finding a good coder to partner with would be ideal, as I'm really excited to get this project on course, and my foremost hope and reason for posting was that someone who was up for the project might take to the idea and come aboard. Of course I can certainly appreciate the hesitation in light of the lack of a tangible build, and with the fleeting interest of so many people in making MUDs.

With regards to the structure I mentioned, it's just been my experience that additions can be completed in such a way that the various contributions can complement one another, making your overall progress much more cohesive and therefore more tangible for your players. That isn't to say I wouldn't welcome most anyone capable who has interest to contribute as they wish. And of course if you don't enjoy or have any vision for a given endeavor, what's the point? For many of us, that's what it makes it fun. Notwithstanding the relative boundaries of the 'realistic', present-day foundation, there's really something for everyone here.
04 Feb, 2010, Cratylus wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
_graham said:
the sheer depth of most every facet of all of these things will almost necessitate a certain structure to this team, with two or three coders/builders working together on a project, and ideally with a few different projects underway at a given time


http://lpmuds.net/newcomer.html
04 Feb, 2010, Guest wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
Cratylus said:
_graham said:
the sheer depth of most every facet of all of these things will almost necessitate a certain structure to this team, with two or three coders/builders working together on a project, and ideally with a few different projects underway at a given time


http://lpmuds.net/newcomer.html


A bit overzealous considering that I haven't expressed at all any interest in telling anyone what to do or that I don't know how to code, but thanks, I think. I can't find a single point at that link that isn't in some way refuted by what I've said. I asked that any interested coders or builders contact me via PM for further discussion, as I do have a comprehensive design document. I've nothing to lose by opening the door to anyone who may be even vaguely intrigued, and any inquiry beyond a cursory glance at my post would certainly refute any question about the intended longevity in the MUD or whether I take the proposed project seriously.

I appreciate that you likely intended this as advice, but considering the previous points regarding the inherent skepticism about the long-term potential of a new MUD, it undermines the intent of my post – to open the door to anyone else who may be interested in getting involved and helping me get it done, and that isn't at all to say that I intend to twiddle my thumbs while they work.
04 Feb, 2010, Cratylus wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
_graham said:
A bit trigger-happy


http://lpmuds.net/newcomer.html said:
Welcome! I am very glad you're excited about muds and I
hope you stay and become a frequent participant and
contributor to this forum. I also extend to you my most
sincere wish that you succeed in your game. The community
benefits from more good games.


The page was linked out of a desire to help you understand the dubiousness
you've already seen in this thread and are likely to see more of. Your assumption
that I pulled a trigger at you is mistaken.

_graham said:
I haven't expressed at all any interest in telling anyone what to do


You are proposing a mud project with 600 quests and a very specific setting, theme, and genre.
Are you not planning to be on the administrative team for your mud? If you are going to
be admin, and you're going to pursue the vision you've described, does that not mean directing
the people who join to do what you want?

_graham said:
any inquiry beyond a cursory glance at my post would certainly refute any question about the intended longevity in the MUD or whether I take the proposed project seriously


The intended longevity is not at issue.

The unrealistic expectations you expressed are. For example:

_graham said:
The game will be set initially in a sprawling and faithful rendering of present-day New York City, and this will eventually be expanded to include London, Washington D.C., and potentially a number of other locales.


That's pretty bold. Not impossible…but very bold. After you make a bold statement like this,
the right thing to do is back up your boldness with a solid demonstration that you got what
it takes to get er done. You didn't do this. Take careful note of the polite but firmly
dissuasive posts you received in response. These people know what they're talking about,
and are gently explaining to you that you've bitten off quite a lot more than it looks like
you can chew. Based on your response to my useful link, you seem to be strengthening
this view.

I can't change anything about that, but I can advise this: forget about hiring teams of coders
that will work to make your dreams come true. Concentrate on what you can do on your
own, and actually do it, and open a game, and run it, and improve it, and make yourself
successful, and then when that modest success can be shown, show it, and that may
attract the help you need. Nothing succeeds like success, but you got to bootstrap it
yourself first. Like it or not, your awesome idea just isn't awesome enough to do it.

http://lpmuds.net/newcomer.html said:
Your awesome idea is one of 10,000. It is important for
you to understand that. Just having an awesome idea doesn't
even come close to convincing anyone that the idea needs
a mud, and that you need to be the boss of it, and that
people should want to come and work on it for you, for free.
The idea is important, but it is not the most important part.


Listen to Orrin and elanthis, if listening to me is unacceptable.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
04 Feb, 2010, Koron wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
I can advise this: forget about hiring teams of coders
that will work to make your dreams come true. Concentrate on what you can do on your
own, and actually do it, and open a game, and run it, and improve it, and make yourself
successful, and then when that modest success can be shown, show it, and that may
attract the help you need. Nothing succeeds like success, but you got to bootstrap it
yourself first.

This.

Nothing says "I'm serious about wanting to make this mud" like actually doing it. When you've got something to show for it, it's much much easier to find someone to help you, but remember: When you accept "help," you may need to make concessions to your vision. You can't expect "your coder" to implement every little thing you ask (unless you begin paying this person), because you will not be the boss. I'll be happy to elaborate on this point if my meaning is unclear. Key point? Dive in! It's a great learning process, and you may dislike it simply because it's hard. When you figure stuff out, it gets more fun.
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