17 Jan, 2011, Asylumius wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
For poops and giggles, I decided to connect to some of the new MUDs in the various listings and check them out.

It's ridiculous how many of them have creation processes that are either IMPOSSIBLE or very difficult to complete.

One, for example, forces me to allocate points before I could continue. No matter what class I picked, once I picked enough of the low level / low cost abilities I got told I couldn't choose anymore BUT I also couldn't continue without spending all my points.

Another one had no available hometowns (at least for the build I picked).

A couple more were passable, but incredibly confusing (not to mention colorful).

PLEASE folks, before you invite the public to play, play-test, or contribute to your MUD, make sure it's easy (and POSSIBLE!) to create a character. This goes double when the only apparently way to report a bug is in-game because you have no website.
17 Jan, 2011, Lyanic wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Congratulations on completing the character creation process. (Time elapsed: 1:31:06)

Would you like to finalize this character and log into the game? [ / N]
'Y'
Invalid selection.
Would you like to finalize this character and log into the game? [ / N]
'Yes'
Invalid selection.
Would you like to finalize this character and log into the game? [ / N]
'Sigh…'
Invalid selection.
Would you like to finalize this character and log into the game? [ / N]
'N'
Are you sure you wish to abandon this character? [Y / ]
**Connection Terminated**
17 Jan, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
Asylumius said:
A couple more were passable, but incredibly confusing (not to mention colorful).


While I agree totally that a MUD's char creation should work before it's open to the public, I really think you should not have mentioned colorful as a flaw on par with confusing–that's a very subjective and biased statement. Color and confusion are two very different concepts, not necessarily related in the way you suggest. Color, when used well, can in fact make things less confusing. For instance, it can make it easier for the eye to focus on important information or group similar information together.

But you didn't specify that you meant color used badly, so I have to assume that you dislike all color. If that's the case, you should spend the 2 minutes required to turn it off either on the server side or, if the server doesn't have that option, in your client.
17 Jan, 2011, Asylumius wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
Meh. Color is great. Rainbows aren't. That's all I have to say on that subject.

Color can make menus easier to quickly interpret, but to clarify, I was looking at rainbows of color.
17 Jan, 2011, Runter wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
I think it's fair to say that color used poorly can distract from the actual content of the text. I personally like solid lines with two alternating colors similar to what most paste bins do for reading data in creation.
17 Jan, 2011, Asylumius wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
Runter said:
I think it's fair to say that color used poorly can distract from the actual content of the text. I personally like solid lines with two alternating colors similar to what most paste bins do for reading data in creation.


Have an example of what you mean here regarding pastebins?
17 Jan, 2011, David Haley wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
Umm, maybe the MB pastebin might be a place to start for alternating colors in pastebins… :rolleyes:
17 Jan, 2011, Ssolvarain wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
I've connected to and played a few hundred muds, and the character creation is usually the least of my problems. If there is a problem, I move on to the next mud. No point in bitching at the rain, yknow?

I'd also like to say that having high hopes for a new mud listing is fairly stupid.
17 Jan, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
I'd also like to say that having high hopes for a new mud listing is fairly stupid.


Heeey, my mud listing is still new! :cry:

One must never lose hope, mustn't one?
17 Jan, 2011, Runter wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
Well, it's sort of hard to see on pastebin.com but they alternate the lines in light shades. I like using a light cyan and a linen color to alternate. I find it easier to read text whether it's on my kindle or on my telnet terminal.
17 Jan, 2011, Runter wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
I've connected to and played a few hundred muds, and the character creation is usually the least of my problems. If there is a problem, I move on to the next mud. No point in bitching at the rain, yknow?


I think it's legitimate to talk about here. I'm of the opinion that creation is the most important presentation to the player. It's the first (and often only, if bad) glance they get at your game. It doesn't matter how fun and well designed the rest of the game is if the players can't even get out of creation without involuntary close window impulses.
17 Jan, 2011, Asylumius wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
David Haley said:
Umm, maybe the MB pastebin might be a place to start for alternating colors in pastebins… :rolleyes:


Forgive me for not having an intimate knowledge of a pastebin that A) is hardly ever used, and B) I haven't worked on in years.

Gobble a cock, DH. :rolleyes:
User was warned for this post.
Reason: * No harassment. This includes but is not limited to: "trolling", "flaming", and antagonizing others for your own amusement.
17 Jan, 2011, Asylumius wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
I've connected to and played a few hundred muds, and the character creation is usually the least of my problems. If there is a problem, I move on to the next mud. No point in bitching at the rain, yknow?

I'd also like to say that having high hopes for a new mud listing is fairly stupid.


I agree. I didn't so much have "high hopes" as I was amazed how little effort some of these folks put into testing/QA arguably the most important (if done poorly) aspect of a MUD, especially a new one.

*shrug* I wish them luck acquiring players.
17 Jan, 2011, sankoachaea wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
On the topic of color in the character creation process, I have to comment.

Color is a feature that -should- be available to players in the game. It is also nice to have it customizable or disabled for people who do not find it appealing. Considering that enabling/disabling color is a flag change to a player-file (generally) and character creation implies that no such player-file has been created (yet), I would advise sparse use of color in this process, or the option to enable/disable it in the beginning of the character creation process.

Otherwise you are forcing something on potential players that could inadvertently cause your MUD to lose players. I don't like having a lot of color on my screen. Sometimes it makes things hard to read. If I'm considering a new mud, and I can't even get passed character creation without my screen being lit up like the 4th of July, I might opt out and move on to the next MUD on my list.
18 Jan, 2011, Ssolvarain wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
Runter said:
I think it's legitimate to talk about here.


I'm… happy for you?

Anyways, the thought that people quit when meeting the chargen is fairly uninformed. Most people quit 10 minutes into the game itself. This is an observed behavior, and I think most admins with new players on a regular basis will agree.

Most players view chargen as a middleman between them and the game, to be dealt with swiftly in the usual steps. Tack on that most muds use the same chargen process, and you can sort of see how chargen is not the issue for a lack of players. Chargen is forgotten as soon as you're done with it, but the slew of never-ending in-game problems are what haunt you and make you leery of such things in future games. Like: Rent. Gains based on modded stats, as opposed to base. Admins who bring in their significant other. Muds where you have to type complete words in complex ways to do something as simple as "ge ma ba", now see as "get the shiny green mask from the blue bag with the red stitching". The list can go on and on, but chargen itself is just chargen. No one really looks at it twice until they see something unexpected.
18 Jan, 2011, Bobo the bee wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
sankoachaea said:
Color is a feature that -should- be available to players in the game. It is also nice to have it customizable or disabled for people who do not find it appealing. Considering that enabling/disabling color is a flag change to a player-file (generally) and character creation implies that no such player-file has been created (yet), I would advise sparse use of color in this process, or the option to enable/disable it in the beginning of the character creation process.


I think, in today's mudding world, it'd be best to start off a new descriptor/connection with color and allow color to be turned off very quickly; while I'm not a big fan of the initial "Would you like color? [y / n]" line before the MUD login screen, it's not that horrible. I'll probably be adding the option to turn off color at the login screen itself or as soon as you begin the new character process, as most places do.

But I also agree with some others, that poor use of color (I do like my color after all) can really make good text bad.
18 Jan, 2011, Runter wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
Runter said:
I think it's legitimate to talk about here.

Anyways, the thought that people quit when meeting the chargen is fairly uninformed. Most people quit 10 minutes into the game itself. This is an observed behavior, and I think most admins with new players on a regular basis will agree.


I won't waste anyones time talking about anecdotal evidence here to prove who is uninformed, but this is what you said in your last post in regards to when you have a problem with creation:
Quote
If there is a problem, I move on to the next mud. No point in bitching at the rain, yknow?


So your position was that there is no point complaining (you said it more elegantly, of course) and that you just leave. But now you want to convince us that you don't leave, you wait at least 10 minutes into the game every time by decree of the mud Gods. Don't you think it's possible that the only reason you see people log in and quit after stepping one foot in your game is because those are just the people who decided to finish creation? You don't think these people had negative thoughts while going through your creation that affected their foregone conclusion that they probably won't be playing this game? Whether they did or not, this is exactly why anecdotal evidence is no good. So talking about who is and isn't informed is pretty dumb in this context. I think it's safe to say, though, that having a bad creation experience, the first experience the player has with your game, is a consequential one. And if you don't care enough about your game to make it a good experience then you don't deserve more than 10 minutes from the Mud Gods.
18 Jan, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
Anyways, the thought that people quit when meeting the chargen is fairly uninformed. Most people quit 10 minutes into the game itself. This is an observed behavior, and I think most admins with new players on a regular basis will agree.

I would replace "10 minutes" with a more general "first few minutes", but other than that I agree that more players quit within the game than within character creation. I've observed the same trend in every mud I've ever run, and their creation systems have been highly varied.

My records don't differentiate between time spent in creation and time spent in the game, but you may still find these stats of passing interest:

32.0% of those who quit before 1 minute (41 of 128) didn't complete character creation.
27.8% of those who quit before 2 minutes (75 of 270) didn't complete character creation.
25.2% of those who quit before 3 minutes (105 of 416) didn't complete character creation.
22.9% of those who quit before 4 minutes (120 of 525) didn't complete character creation.
22.2% of those who quit before 5 minutes (134 of 603) didn't complete character creation.
20.5% of those who quit before 6 minutes (138 of 674) didn't complete character creation.
19.6% of those who quit before 7 minutes (143 of 728) didn't complete character creation.
19.1% of those who quit before 8 minutes (148 of 775) didn't complete character creation.
18.4% of those who quit before 9 minutes (151 of 821) didn't complete character creation.
17.5% of those who quit before 10 minutes (152 of 868) didn't complete character creation.
12.7% of those who quit before 11 minutes (154 of 1213) didn't complete character creation.
10.0% of those who quit before 12 minutes (154 of 1534) didn't complete character creation.
8.6% of those who quit before 13 minutes (157 of 1836) didn't complete character creation.
7.6% of those who quit before 14 minutes (160 of 2113) didn't complete character creation.
6.8% of those who quit before 15 minutes (160 of 2364) didn't complete character creation.

4.7% of those who quit before 20 minutes (166 of 3499) didn't complete character creation.

3.9% of those who quit before 25 minutes (168 of 4307) didn't complete character creation.

3.4% of those who quit before 30 minutes (171 of 4974) didn't complete character creation.


Of course that doesn't mean character creation isn't important. Considering it's just one feature, I actually find the above percentages quite worrying, and have spent quite a lot of time going over my creation system and seeing how it could be improved, clarified and/or simplified. I even guess the character's gender to reduce the number of choices the player needs to make ;)

Lyanic's example may have been tongue-in-cheek, but I've seen some character creation systems that aren't far off it. I recall NiMUD's being particularly unfriendly, for example:

Quote
[Num] Name - Siz Age Bth Scene Sks Sr In Ws Dx Co Bonuses
[ 0] human 24 125 17 5000 50 13 13 13 13 13
[ 1] dwarf 16 125 17 5000 30 15 11 13 10 15
[ 2] giant 32 125 17 5000 30 14 14 14 14 14
[ 3] mutant 32 125 17 10200 30 15 11 13 10 15
[ 4] offspring 20 125 17 5000 40 13 14 14 15 13
[ 5] aborigine 24 125 17 10100 50 13 13 14 14 13
[ 6] shi-ito 24 325 100 7710 80 13 15 17 13 18
[ 7] Muidar 24 125 17 10300 50 13 13 13 13 13
[ 8] golem 40 125 17 10310 50 18 13 13 10 18
[ 9] blood samurai 56 125 17 10300 50 20 13 13 8 20
[ 10] Baal 64 125 17 10305 10 20 20 20 20 20
[ 11] Alsidi 8 125 17 5000 50 8 15 13 25 10
[ 12] Hilldwarf 16 125 17 5000 50 18 13 13 13 18
[ 13] leprechuan 16 150 17 5000 50 8 15 13 25 10
[ 14] cyborg 24 75 17 5000 50 8 15 13 25 10 infrared
[ 15] monoped 8 125 17 5000 50 8 15 13 25 10
[ 16] medulfil 8 12000 17 5000 50 8 15 13 25 10 infrared
Which race? 0

I'm sorry, I don't know of that race.
Which? monoped

Related Topics:
None.Is this ok? yes

*************
* Stat Menu * You may modify your statistics to suit your character better.
*************

trength: below average
ntelligence: high
[W]isdom: above average
[D]exterity: extremely high
[C]onstitution: average
[A]ge: 17 years
[H]eight: 8 units
You have 5 points to distribute.
Hit return to continue, or, Malk, type a letter: s


——————————————————————————
Strength is primarily the requirement of warriors, assassins, soldiers,
mercenaries and the like; it also aids dungeoneers in forcing doors and
other skills which require brawn.

Do you wish to increase + or decrease - this stat? +


*************
* Stat Menu * You may modify your statistics to suit your character better.
*************

trength: below average
ntelligence: high
[W]isdom: above average
[D]exterity: extremely high
[C]onstitution: average
[A]ge: 17 years
[H]eight: 8 units
You have 5 points to distribute.
Hit return to continue, or, Malk, type a letter:
19 Jan, 2011, Zadious wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
When I try out new muds, even old muds that are new to me, the chargen process is a big deal.

I am one of those statistics that logs out after just a few minutes of making it past chargen.

Why?

Perhaps I am just slow or too thorough, but after an hour+ in chargen, I am tried and ready to log off. There are rules and help files to read as well as trying to understand your games specific stat system to build a decent character. When I am done with the character creation, I need a break.

Call me slow, a whimp, what have ye, but this is my experience.

The next problem is will I log back in and make use of my character?

It depends. I have been bored to tears while creating characters for some games and after such a lengthy process I find very little to keep me interested in those precious moments after the chargen process. In these situations I often never return.

If you could somehow bring some of the game into the creation process, like a small single player area that lets you perform some basic commands and what not. I imagine a war taking place and youre the new recruit. While in character creation there could be missiles falling in from above and a commander shouting for you to hurry up and get your gear. After finishing your character you would be rewarded with helping in the battle. Maybe you become the hero of the battle and afterwards venture into the main game.

I believe that a new creation process or some fun added to the existing process would hold my interest much more.

If youre going to use basically the same chargen process as everyone else, why not just have a fast join where I am a human fighter with level stats and I get right into the fun of the game. Then if I like your game, I can go back and create my own custom character.
19 Jan, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 20th comment:
Votes: 0
Zadious said:
If you could somehow bring some of the game into the creation process, like a small single player area that lets you perform some basic commands and what not. I imagine a war taking place and youre the new recruit. While in character creation there could be missiles falling in from above and a commander shouting for you to hurry up and get your gear. After finishing your character you would be rewarded with helping in the battle. Maybe you become the hero of the battle and afterwards venture into the main game.

I remember once discussing the idea of a mud where the moment you created your character, you found yourself in the middle of a battle. Can't remember where I discussed it, unfortunately, although while looking I dug up a few other interesting links (which I'll post later). In retrospect though, I fear it could confuse and discourage new players because of the spam.

Some muds also do the opposite - instead of bringing the game into the creation process, they move the creation process into the game. My 16K mud took this to the extreme - the moment your client connected you were in the game, and all creation options (including picking your name and password) were done after that.

Zadious said:
If youre going to use basically the same chargen process as everyone else, why not just have a fast join where I am a human fighter with level stats and I get right into the fun of the game. Then if I like your game, I can go back and create my own custom character.

That's the route I took, but I still get some people who insist on spending ages going through custom character creation only to quit within a few minutes of entering the game. Even a big warning doesn't seem to deter them.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier I found a few relevant links while trying to find a discussion on character creation.

Players creating a character, logging in...

Avoiding mistakes in character creation ...

Proposal for an "interactive story" char...

What do people look for in character cre...

Finally, back in 2007, the owner of Achaea posted some stats on players who complet..., which is quite interesting because their creation process was graphical - something which I know other muds have considered:

Quote
60% of players completed the character creation process which is fairly good I'd say, so I'm not too worried about this aspect of things. I'm guessing it's high because the creation process is graphically-driven in Nexus, with character portraits and that sort of thing to select from.

Then things get ugly again. 51 out of 1297 players is about 3.9%. That means 96.1% of the players who finished character creation dropped out soon after being put straight into a mainly text environment (our Nexus client puts at least somewhat attractive graphics around the text output area but it's still mainly a text output area, of course).
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