09 Jan, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 1st comment:
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Just wrote an article on avoiding unnecessary complexity in MUD codebase/game design. This was inspired by some conversations seen on #evennia IRC.

Would love to discuss here or on the comments on the article.

Link: MUD tech is fun/cool, but...
09 Jan, 2013, Runter wrote in the 2nd comment:
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I think you hit the nail on the head. I think many people simply want to try out cool things like your article states, but there is a problem of not understanding the real bottlenecks in software like muds. Spending time prematurely optimizing and designing for unnecessary burden is useless debt to the project. Including making decisions about technology and hosting requirements.
09 Jan, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 3rd comment:
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Worth the read, if you want to experiment complex designs, muds are not the place to go for as they dont need them to begin with.
Thinking too big right from the beginning is also a burden, as you will probably never release anything this way and it is true for almost every project.
09 Jan, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 4th comment:
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I should have included this from the beginning, but here's the appropriate image for those considering "souping" up their MUD:
09 Jan, 2013, Hades_Kane wrote in the 5th comment:
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Quote
This "time limit" varies from person to person, and some possess the rare ability to regularly, routinely work on a game for years before going public, but those types are very rare now.


Ahem.


<.<


>.>
10 Jan, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 6th comment:
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Kelvin said:
I should have included this from the beginning, but here's the appropriate image for those considering "souping" up their MUD:


Woo, check out the physics engine on this baby! Leaves your Turing AI in the dust.
10 Jan, 2013, Ssolvarain wrote in the 7th comment:
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Kelvin said:
I should have included this from the beginning, but here's the appropriate image for those considering "souping" up their MUD:


10 Jan, 2013, Tyche wrote in the 8th comment:
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DikuMud

TeensyMud
10 Jan, 2013, Lyanic wrote in the 9th comment:
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Hades_Kane said:
Quote
This "time limit" varies from person to person, and some possess the rare ability to regularly, routinely work on a game for years before going public, but those types are very rare now.


Ahem.


<.<


>.>

Listing on TMC != "going public". You had players, therefore already public. I played your MUD back in 2007 or 2008….I forget which. Sorry for sounding so antagonistic. Your terminology is just maddening to me at times. I should really let it go…

Although, while we're on the topic, I worked on my game from Dec. 2001 until Jan. 2004 before I let any players on. I thought that was fairly standard for non-fly-by-night games? Is it not?
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 10th comment:
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I would just like to express how glad I am that this article was linked to here and that it was written in the first place. This is exactly what I needed to here.

I have worked as a game designer for multiple years, even on some big titles. Always, I have had in the back of my mind these ideas - conceptual, contextual - that I would like to see implemented in a game. I have played MUDs on and off for… 16 years or so, and I have worked (to a very limited degree) on a couple as a builder or writer. Lately, my interest has been more strongly geared toward learning how to program. I use Windows, so I have been playing with Microsoft Visual Studio 2010/2012 (I get a discount, so why not grab it?) with C++, Lua, and Squirrel. I would really like to learn to program but most of all, I would really like to build a MUD. I have some 20+ codebases on my desktop that I have tinkered with, seeing which ones I can play with in MSVC and which ones I can get to compile. I look at random bits of code and try to figure out what stuff does, or I try to fix a compiler error/warning before eventually moving on to the next codebase. The purpose, I think, is to select a codebase. I'm still at a loss, but this has helped me tremendously with how I think about the code.

I think I'll be seriously checking out Evennia, SocketMUD, NakedMUD, TeensyMUD, CoralMUD, etc. now that I know what my strategy is: Produce the minimum viable product. Focus on the most direct way to "opening day".

Thank you so much.

P.S. I have followed these forums for years and it was this article that prompted me to register.
10 Jan, 2013, Davion wrote in the 11th comment:
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This is some really great advice. I really wish I had this back when I posted a thread on game design. I had some good stuff laid out but was tricked by the promise of new, easier technologies. TBH, the venture was worth it and turned into learning some great things that I've used many times since. One thing I should probably share is the usage of FreeMind. Awesome program.

There's some great framework in that previously mentioned Game Design threads for setting up you're game. Do you have any sort of guides or outlines when designing the codebase? KaVir gave us this piece of gold which really helped me lay out a game. Anything from when setting up Evennia?

yue said:
I think I'll be seriously checking out Evennia, SocketMUD, NakedMUD, TeensyMUD, CoralMUD, etc. now that I know what my strategy is: Produce the minimum viable product. Focus on the most direct way to "opening day".

Thank you so much.

P.S. I have followed these forums for years and it was this article that prompted me to register.


Those are some great choices! Don't forget PlainText, and if you aren't afraid of Diku, Murk++. I'm glad another lurker has stepped from the shadows! Welcome to the light!! Don't forget to introduce yourself :D.
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 12th comment:
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I was just looking at PlainText, and Murk++ is on my desktop.. but I'm curious why you suggest Murk++ specifically? Thanks for the input!
10 Jan, 2013, Hades_Kane wrote in the 13th comment:
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Lyanic said:
Your terminology is just maddening to me at times. I should really let it go…


;)

Quote
Although, while we're on the topic, I worked on my game from Dec. 2001 until Jan. 2004 before I let any players on. I thought that was fairly standard for non-fly-by-night games? Is it not?


Difficult to answer…. the majority of MUDs could be argued to be fly-by-night games. In those that aren't, I wouldn't be surprised if even still half or more of those didn't start out as a quickly thrown up stock game with a new color scheme and maybe a month or two of work that took years after opening to start to look like something of its own.

It was just important to me that before End of Time was advertised as open (doing so implies a degree of completion and sets player expectations different and higher than a game they are logging into that isn't officially open or considered still in development), that as much of the core experience was complete as possible to make as good of a "first impression" as possible.

We're still not actively advertising as open (though we are listed as such), I've actually backed down on the advertising a bit as we finish the last couple of minor things needed to open the level cap to 65 and getting the official opening event worked up.
10 Jan, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 14th comment:
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yue said:
I was just looking at PlainText, and Murk++ is on my desktop.. but I'm curious why you suggest Murk++ specifically? Thanks for the input!

Just to interject, but this may be a better topic for another thread. A lot of these posts tend to devolve into codebase selection discussions, and it'd be a shame for it to happen here, yet again. That's why I've said basically nothing of my connections to one of the codebases being mentioned, it's not really relevant to this article.
10 Jan, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 15th comment:
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so I have been playing with Microsoft Visual Studio 2010/2012 (I get a discount, so why not grab it?)

Pretty limiting move cause servers are essentially unix based for the cheap one. Where will you deploy your server code…
10 Jan, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 16th comment:
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Lyanic said:
Listing on TMC != "going public". You had players, therefore already public. I played your MUD back in 2007 or 2008….I forget which. Sorry for sounding so antagonistic. Your terminology is just maddening to me at times. I should really let it go…

I could have probably used a better term for this, but in my case, "going public" means you're listing yourself as "playable", and "not a disaster for an average Joe Schmoe to play". You may not have the best area selection, and there may be some balance issues, but the game is playable enough to keep someone busy for a while.

Lyanic said:
Although, while we're on the topic, I worked on my game from Dec. 2001 until Jan. 2004 before I let any players on. I thought that was fairly standard for non-fly-by-night games? Is it not?

It varies hugely by developer and by game design. My two most successful games took around 8 months each, but I worked on them with a staff of 2-3 people that I had worked with multiple times before. Alone, that probably would have stretched to 12 months or so in both cases. These were both BattletechMUXs, so they were very code-heavy, and needed a lot of work before they became "playable".
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 17th comment:
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Kelvin said:
yue said:
I was just looking at PlainText, and Murk++ is on my desktop.. but I'm curious why you suggest Murk++ specifically? Thanks for the input!

Just to interject, but this may be a better topic for another thread. A lot of these posts tend to devolve into codebase selection discussions, and it'd be a shame for it to happen here, yet again. That's why I've said basically nothing of my connections to one of the codebases being mentioned, it's not really relevant to this article.

If one of those codebases is ideally suited for a new MUD developer to deliver the bare-minimum viable product, it's kind of relevant, isn't it? If not, maybe Davion can shoot me an explanation in a PM? *hopeful*

Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
so I have been playing with Microsoft Visual Studio 2010/2012 (I get a discount, so why not grab it?)

Pretty limiting move cause servers are essentially unix based for the cheap one. Where will you deploy your server code…

I would deploy on a *nix server. While looking at code for educational purposes, is there anything wrong with using MSVS?
10 Jan, 2013, Kelvin wrote in the 18th comment:
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Whenever the codebase selection question is raised on Mudbytes, threads tend to drop down into something resembling a discussion on "what text editor is best?" or "what is the best MUD?", which amounts to a bunch of anecdotal crap :) That's why I raise the alarm here somewhat. It's not really relevant to the core of the article, since everyone is going to have different opinions on what would make you more productive.
yue said:
If one of those codebases is ideally suited for a new MUD developer to deliver the bare-minimum viable product, it's kind of relevant, isn't it? If not, maybe Davion can shoot me an explanation in a PM? *hopeful*

Theoretically, they'd all work, and there are an abundance of codebases that would do the trick for most types of games. The ones you listed tend to approach things different ways, some of which will agree with your style, some of which you'll really dislike. That's the thing about codebase selection that's boring: It's so hugely subjective.
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 19th comment:
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I see. Thanks for the explanation. Certainly not meaning to devolve this excellent thread; as I stated in my OP, this article has really given me some valuable information. Thanks again!
10 Jan, 2013, Lyanic wrote in the 20th comment:
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Kelvin said:
Lyanic said:
Listing on TMC != "going public". You had players, therefore already public. I played your MUD back in 2007 or 2008….I forget which. Sorry for sounding so antagonistic. Your terminology is just maddening to me at times. I should really let it go…

I could have probably used a better term for this, but in my case, "going public" means you're listing yourself as "playable", and "not a disaster for an average Joe Schmoe to play".

I was directing that at HK, not you. However, if someone just throws up a stock game - is that not "playable"? It's boring and uninspired, certainly, but it is playable. </Devil's Advocate>
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