22 Mar, 2013, salindor wrote in the 41st comment:
Votes: 0
Personally my complaint against javascript isn't in its capability. Any language can pretty much do anything.

I find the structure of programs written in javascript abysmal. The language was originally only designed for writing 10 lines of code really fast. I know it has been expanded over the years, but the things I see javascipt proponents tout as great language features I think–great so you came up with a hack to make the language work and now tout it as a feature. But really what it comes down to lack of typing, and auto converting of variables, scoping issues, lack of proper objects…. What can I say I am a C/C++ guy.

I think if I had to go that route I could use typescript to get over my aversion to it; but since this is just a hobby I do what I please. :biggrin:
22 Mar, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 42nd comment:
Votes: 0
salindor said:
Personally my complaint against javascript isn't in its capability. Any language can pretty much do anything.

But really what it comes down to lack of typing, and auto converting of variables, scoping issues, lack of proper objects…. What can I say I am a C/C++ guy.


Loose typing is not the same as lack of typing–if you ask me, it's better. Anyone who doesn't understand the scoping of a language would have "issues". As for the objects, I venture that once you know how to use them (because there is more than one way to do it), they will begin to seem extremely "proper", and even capable.

But it seems you already know that your objections have nothing to do with the quality of the language, so that's good. Ten years from now, I'll probably be writing the same post about some new language that I believe is inferior to C or JS because it's, uhm, not my cup of tea.

If I was writing a MUD codebase, I'd use *any* interpreted language. Like Runter said, there are no real reasons not to. And there are quite a few reasons you would, e. g. getting everything related to in-game scripting and dynamic code updates "for free".

P. S.
In some benchmarks, node.js web apps perform very close to compiled peers. Of course, benchmarks can prove anything, but I think no-one disputes anymore that a node.js app can handle 10,000 simultaneous connections without breaking a sweat. So maybe not even performance is a reason to scoff at interpreted languages anymore.
22 Mar, 2013, Telgar wrote in the 43rd comment:
Votes: 0
salindor said:
Personally my complaint against javascript isn't in its capability. Any language can pretty much do anything.

I find the structure of programs written in javascript abysmal. The language was originally only designed for writing 10 lines of code really fast. I know it has been expanded over the years, but the things I see javascipt proponents tout as great language features I think–great so you came up with a hack to make the language work and now tout it as a feature. But really what it comes down to lack of typing, and auto converting of variables, scoping issues, lack of proper objects…. What can I say I am a C/C++ guy.

I think if I had to go that route I could use typescript to get over my aversion to it; but since this is just a hobby I do what I please. :biggrin:


Read
Quote
Javascript … the Good Parts
22 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 44th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
MUD's are text games. A good 95% of their code involves manipulating text. Why, in God's name, would you *CHOOSE* to use a language which lacks a native string type?


Yep. No need for any other reason to never look back when you start a new mud.

Quote
If you know of one with a Diku style feel written in Javascript, I'd love to here about it. I'm not aware of any.


Nope I was asking. I am only maintainin/upgrading my own old childhood mud, so I only looked once in a Coffeemud (to reimplement it) but then I got the original code. (shoudl have used another engine and reimplement the feel…but heh I did not know how bad Diku was then (not to mention everything even worse that was put on top of it….)
22 Mar, 2013, Runter wrote in the 45th comment:
Votes: 0
I happen to have a copy of Javascript…The Good Parts in my office. Too bad it's in japanese. :p
22 Mar, 2013, Runter wrote in the 46th comment:
Votes: 0
Also, I suggest to anyone who doesn't quite like javascript to use a javascript compiler. I use coffeescript and really enjoy it. There's one ones out there.

The code it compiles to is still very good, and it's quite a bit more maintainable.
22 Mar, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 47th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
If you know of one with a Diku style feel written in Javascript, I'd love to here about it. I'm not aware of any.


Nope I was asking. I am only maintainin/upgrading my own old childhood mud, so I only looked once in a Coffeemud (to reimplement it) but then I got the original code. (shoudl have used another engine and reimplement the feel…but heh I did not know how bad Diku was then (not to mention everything even worse that was put on top of it….)


While not javascript, I have considered writing a DikuMUD work-alike in LPC. It should be quite doable, as you'd use the Diku style centralized combat/healing/etc instead of the usual LpMUD heartbeat-driven combat. However, instead of putting all the if/then spaghetti code into your combat daemon, you'd have it call hooks back into each NPC/player object, so the objects can implement unique things.
22 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 48th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
While not javascript, I have considered writing a DikuMUD work-alike in LPC


Why using a unknown langage ? I would stick to something useful in the business world. Enough langage to pick that is supported and actually used. The most complicated a mud deals with is the network. Beside that replicating a diku feel is just a loop away.
22 Mar, 2013, Runter wrote in the 49th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
While not javascript, I have considered writing a DikuMUD work-alike in LPC


Why using a unknown langage ? I would stick to something useful in the business world. Enough langage to pick that is supported and actually used. The most complicated a mud deals with is the network. Beside that replicating a diku feel is just a loop away.


Because he likes LPC. :p
22 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 50th comment:
Votes: 0
Runter said:
Because he likes LPC. :p


I like Java :p (or more truthfully I like any langage that compile (because it is a LOT faster than using a static analyzer to detect the most moronic errors) with a high number of usable libraries that are NOT GPL cause I do not want to have my code contaminated by other people political agenda).
And it is still better to know if you ever wanted to work again in the IT industry (that I would rather not, been there done that)
22 Mar, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 51st comment:
Votes: 0
Like it or not, JS is here to stay. Even worse, it is spreading, some may say, like a tumor!

For one, it is eating away at Java's dominance on the server-side. The fact that you can now write both the front end and the back end of a complex application in the same language is very powerful. This is a boon for both businesses and web developers, because they can transfer expertise wherever they need it most. I've experienced this freedom and power first-hand, deploying in no time 4-5 different daemons, including a game server that actually shares about 50% of its code with its client.

On the mobile development side, JS is being used by the Titanium SDK to achieve a high level of platform independence. I only know the basic details on how the script you write is actually compiled to symbols that can run at near-native speeds on either iOS or Android. Even if those apps were running at half the speed of a native app, it would have been worth it for any developer or team that is short on human resources. But they're not. The app I'm writing–you absolutely can't tell that it's not native.

I remember for the first two years of writing JS, I thought it was cumbersome compared to PHP and even C. Now I can't believe I ever felt that way. The language unfolds, and it is not surprising to me that it is now more relevant than it was when it first came out. The illusion that it wasn't meant for writing more than 10 lines of code, that's one of the first to dissolve. And then a few years later you get to a point where ten lines in JS seem to be worth 100 in another language.

I think one major negative stereotype people have about JS has to do with "vanilla" DOM manipulation, which can be a pain. But that has nothing to do with the structure of the language itself and everything to do with browser implementations, standards (and lack thereof). You can think of jQuery as a "workaround" to an inherent flaw, but it's now more accurate to think of it as a necessity for cross-browser DOM manipulation, especially in the WEB 2.+ world.

I don't know much about LPC, but I think for the purposes of this discussion (which has moved into comparing language utility, I guess) it would be difficult to justify picking any hermetic language (what Rarva said). At this point in time, I would not advocate that anyone pick Flash (or client-side Java) to write their web-based game client. And I think that even 10 years ago, for the same reason, I would not have advocated that anyone pick LPC over native C. It's true that you can learn the principles of coding from any language, but it's also true that the more time you spend writing in a language, the easier it gets. So why not pick languages that let you take them to many places? That's not to say that LPMud is inferior in any way to Diku. I just think that if I was writing for LPMud, I would strongly prefer to be writing in its native C rather than in its private meta-language.
22 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 52nd comment:
Votes: 0
>Like it or not, JS is here to stay. Even worse, it is spreading, some may say, like a tumor!

Hell yeah I know…funny is that the same has been said about Java in its time. Would still hesitate to concentrate knowledge on Javascript though. It is still only used for rapid developpment on small scale projects on the server side, and heavy on the client side (and client side contractors are legions). What matters the most is the server side nowadays. Would pick ruby or Java or anything that is used in Big Data. (probably not javascript)
22 Mar, 2013, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 53rd comment:
Votes: 0
Chris Bailey said:
I only write things from scratch because I'm ignorant and completely incapable of understanding code written by others.


I relate and I'm really bad about it, I tend to go to other sites that cater to total noobs.

I've finally been doing some Javascript/html tutorials, thanks for those of ya who recommended it, btw. I'm slow, so it's still about alot of 'hello world' kinda stuff.

I've just been trying to make simple things that I might use later, at least for now. Maybe 10-20 lines or less for dice rolls or something. Then maybe some interactive fiction or some simple games, in the near future, as I'm learning, I dunno. I like graphics and sound but haven't played with any sound yet.

Even a few days after tinkering with something, it tends to look foreign to me again..but my interests are pretty scattered, I guess.

Hopefully, that wasn't too far off topic.
22 Mar, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 54th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
>What matters the most is the server side nowadays.


I cannot disagree more. What matters the most is the user experience, and that's always been true. Maybe you feel that the user experience is somehow determined more by the server than the client? I don't know how you would defend such a position.

Maybe a MUD server is the only place left in this world where devs can still ignore the client. But look what that has bought us.
22 Mar, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 55th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
>What matters the most is the server side nowadays.


I cannot disagree more. What matters the most is the user experience, and that's always been true. Maybe you feel that the user experience is somehow determined more by the server than the client? I don't know how you would defend such a position.

Maybe a MUD server is the only place left in this world where devs can still ignore the client. But look what that has bought us.


Err you are mistaken in what I meant: Money is made on the server side. Not on the client. You do not sell a client anymore. You give it.
22 Mar, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 56th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
plamzi said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
>What matters the most is the server side nowadays.


I cannot disagree more. What matters the most is the user experience, and that's always been true. Maybe you feel that the user experience is somehow determined more by the server than the client? I don't know how you would defend such a position.

Maybe a MUD server is the only place left in this world where devs can still ignore the client. But look what that has bought us.


Err you are mistaken in what I meant: Money is made on the server side. Not on the client. You do not sell a client anymore. You give it.


Hmm, this sounds to me like something an employer might say to justify paying their front-end developers less :)

"Money is made on the server side." would be a true statement if in all cases, you could make money with just a server. Since in all but the most limited scenarios you need a client (multiple clients actually) to have any kind of reach, what does it matter how much you charge for them? You charge for the service, after all.
22 Mar, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 57th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
Quote
While not javascript, I have considered writing a DikuMUD work-alike in LPC


Why using a unknown langage ? I would stick to something useful in the business world. Enough langage to pick that is supported and actually used. The most complicated a mud deals with is the network. Beside that replicating a diku feel is just a loop away.


What's your purpose in creating a MUD?

Do you really want to create a MUD? Or are you trying to convince yourself it's "training" for some future "job"? If you want to make a MUD, perhaps using a tried-and-true MUD development langauge/platform, one that's actually got a support community, isn't such a bad idea. If you want to futz around pretending to be training for a job, stop kidding yourself and write the kind of code you're more likely to be able to market.
22 Mar, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 58th comment:
Votes: 0
Rarva.Riendf said:
plamzi said:
Rarva.Riendf said:
>What matters the most is the server side nowadays.


I cannot disagree more. What matters the most is the user experience, and that's always been true. Maybe you feel that the user experience is somehow determined more by the server than the client? I don't know how you would defend such a position.

Maybe a MUD server is the only place left in this world where devs can still ignore the client. But look what that has bought us.


Err you are mistaken in what I meant: Money is made on the server side. Not on the client. You do not sell a client anymore. You give it.


Last time I checked, Blizzard still made you buy World of Warcraft's client.
22 Mar, 2013, Kline wrote in the 59th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
Last time I checked, Blizzard still made you buy World of Warcraft's client.


That's arguable. You can freely play a trial account up to level 20. You can be in-game and playing without ever paying a cent to them, and then if you do decide to pay, you're paying for an ongoing subscription model: content updates, bug fixes, server-side storage of all your data, bandwidth, etc.
22 Mar, 2013, salindor wrote in the 60th comment:
Votes: 0
Arguing over weather it is better to be a client side person or a server side person is rather pointless (unless you want to sell something then client side). I know people who make plenty of money who couldn't code a server if their life depended on it and make great money because their GUIs are great looking. I have also known people who can't make a good looking GUI and spend all their time on the server side of things. They also make good money.

I don't have any data on the importance of the client side to a mud as I am a new comer in making muds. My intuition tells me it is critical… but that is all it is an opinion.


quixadhal said:
Do you really want to create a MUD? Or are you trying to convince yourself it's "training" for some future "job"? If you want to make a MUD, perhaps using a tried-and-true MUD development langauge/platform, one that's actually got a support community, isn't such a bad idea. If you want to futz around pretending to be training for a job, stop kidding yourself and write the kind of code you're more likely to be able to market.


All coding is "training" for some future "job" regardless of how you go about it. For a hobby the journey is more important than the destination. If I was at work, I would likely agree with you; but I'm not so I can disagree! HA!
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