21 May, 2013, Tyche wrote in the 41st comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
Perhaps it fits the technical definition of a MUD that others here like to use, but it doesn't fit the spiritual definition. In short, it doesn't feel like a MUD, it feels more like a roguelike.

Yet I'd wager that it would be totally rejected by the rogue-like community, because it doesn't feel like a rogue-like.
A) It's not turn-based.
B) It's not randomized every-time you play.

It's got that Kesmai feel to it. :-)

quixadhal said:
Tyche said:
It looks like LPMud 1.41 used Telnet protocol as of May 1990.
AberMud didn't have TCP sockets until Abermud 4.0 ~ late 1990
…meaning you either had to have a local account and invoke abermud or
telnet in to the host machine and login to a specific account (like "mud" or "jabberwocky")
CircleMud 2.01 and Merc 2.0 started to implement Telnet protocol ~ 1993


It should also be noted that there's a difference between using the TELNET protocol, and just using a raw TCP socket. Most of the earlier MUD's used raw TCP sockets, which a TELNET client will happily connect to. In fact, quite a few MUD's today still don't actually use the TELNET protocol.

Yes this is true. The implementation of the Telnet protocol was limited to only a few options, mostly just ECHO, EOR, SUPGA.
LPMuds and also Mush/Mux servers have had Telnet protocol implementations since the early 90's as well.
It's really DikuMud and derivatives that have lagged (or more than often had completely broken implementations) of the Telnet protocol.
Only recently have decent implementations been available on Diku derivatives. (thanks to Elanthis, Scandum, KaVir).
21 May, 2013, Chris Bailey wrote in the 42nd comment:
Votes: 0
So this has slightly spun away from what I originally intended but it's a fun discussion regardless. I do like standard room descriptions when they are well written and actually contain information that pertains to game play. I don't care much for descriptions that are little more than fluff. I consider things like room exits (if the MUD doesn't have an exits command or some other exit list), hidden switches and levers, and hints about room mechanics to be useful and I will read descriptions that regularly give this information. If this kind of information is usually provided in places aside from room descriptions I don't bother reading them. At best, I'll read extremely well-written fluff descriptions one time. ASCII Maps, GUIs simulated with text (TUIs?), and similar features don't make it any less MUD-like for me. As a matter of fact it is difficult to get me to a play a MUD without ASCII maps these days.
22 May, 2013, Lyanic wrote in the 43rd comment:
Votes: 0
Chris Bailey said:
As a matter of fact it is difficult to get me to a play a MUD without ASCII maps these days.

I can recall a couple dozen people saying this in the past year or two.
22 May, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 44th comment:
Votes: 0
Lyanic said:
Chris Bailey said:
As a matter of fact it is difficult to get me to a play a MUD without ASCII maps these days.

I can recall a couple dozen people saying this in the past year or two.


Traitors, all of them. Just need names and addresses.
22 May, 2013, Lyanic wrote in the 45th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
Lyanic said:
Chris Bailey said:
As a matter of fact it is difficult to get me to a play a MUD without ASCII maps these days.

I can recall a couple dozen people saying this in the past year or two.


Traitors, all of them. Just need names and addresses.

I'm sure Quix keeps a database with that sort of information.
22 May, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 46th comment:
Votes: 0
Lyanic said:
plamzi said:
Lyanic said:
Chris Bailey said:
As a matter of fact it is difficult to get me to a play a MUD without ASCII maps these days.

I can recall a couple dozen people saying this in the past year or two.


Traitors, all of them. Just need names and addresses.

I'm sure Quix keeps a database with that sort of information.


What are you implying?! A true MUD stores its information in binary flat files only.

P. S.
Apologies to the OP. But I'm so tired of topics regressing into this kind of unproductive nonsense. We should be talking about how to get players, not measuring each other's ideological purity.
22 May, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 47th comment:
Votes: 0
What I love is how people think I'm against ASCII maps, because I don't think the display should be ONLY an ASCII map. :)

I like mustard on a hot dog, but don't like mustard by itself, without the hot dog. OMG! Quix hates mustard!!!!
22 May, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 48th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
What I love is how people think I'm against ASCII maps, because I don't think the display should be ONLY an ASCII map. :)

I like mustard on a hot dog, but don't like mustard by itself, without the hot dog. OMG! Quix hates mustard!!!!


I have zero problem with anyone sharing what they like and dislike. The part that is problematic is arguing that anything with more than 1 oz of mustard on it stops being a hot dog and then insinuating that what it is now is an automatically inferior product. At that point, you turn to the person enjoying their hot dog (the way they like it) and tell them that they should now throw away the sausage and bun, and just eat mustard, because you feel that what they are eating is no longer a true hot dog.

After many years of perfecting the way you like a hot dog, it is normal to develop strong feelings about it. But you have to be able to take a step back sometimes and realize that definitions are (ideally) the product of communities and not of an individual, even a very important individual such as yourself.

You're a mild case, though, I've seen worse :)
22 May, 2013, Lyanic wrote in the 49th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
even a very important individual such as yourself.

Did you…just refer to Quix as…important?

Also, that hotdog and mustard analogy is confusing.
22 May, 2013, Chris Bailey wrote in the 50th comment:
Votes: 0
Quix is a regular contributor to the community and I respect his opinions even though they are commonly portrayed as fact. No need for anyone to get upset here. :)
23 May, 2013, Ssolvarain wrote in the 51st comment:
Votes: 0
Hot dog and mustard requires onions and chili sauce. I'm confused here.
23 May, 2013, Tyche wrote in the 52nd comment:
Votes: 0
There was a decent analogy from the owner of the mud-dev list (~1997):

"I see the definition of MUD being rather like a blob of black ink, recently
dropped into a bucket of still water. You can definitely see where
the black blob is, but as you move away from there, well, its still
inky, but less so. Just where does the ink stop and the water begin
(esp seeing as the Ink is a water suspension)?"
- JC Lawrence

The only point of the above analogy is that it facilitates discussion, rather than discourages it.
23 May, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 53rd comment:
Votes: 0
Ssolvarain said:
Hot dog and mustard requires onions and chili sauce. I'm confused here.


Yeah, me too. I actually don't care for hot dog at all.

On an on-topic note, has anyone else come across this awesome tileset?

http://www.rpgartkits.com/?page_id=401

He's charging $40 for non-commercial use, which is dirt cheap.
23 May, 2013, Ssolvarain wrote in the 54th comment:
Votes: 0
Wouldn't that be more for use with the… er.. not sure how to describe them. They're sort of like a mud at the most basic level, where players can connect to the DM's computer and view an overhead map set up by the DM, as well as chat with a built in dice roller. Not quite sure what you'd call it.
23 May, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 55th comment:
Votes: 0
online tabletop. Yeah, those do look like tokens for that, but you could repurpose them for just about any overhead GUI I guess.
23 May, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 56th comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
online tabletop. Yeah, those do look like tokens for that, but you could repurpose them for just about any overhead GUI I guess.


The previews are showing mostly NPC's but the text says there are terrains and dungeon / building tiles in the set. I saw his tile work on a roguelike–best I've seen. Might be a good fit for an overhead map.
23 May, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 57th comment:
Votes: 0
This makes me think of something. So you have your individual devs with their muds. Then you have people saying, why don't these devs band together and make one Super Mud ™ since then they could pool their efforts. And also plamzi has talked about devs banding together with a similar UI and so on, but their individual games.

What about individual devs with their games (with perhaps quite different mechanics and so on), agreeing on a shared world concept where the content all takes place in the same world. Then reusing a lot of the same art assets could make sense. Maybe one mud has one continent, another mud as a different continent, another mud is mostly in the Underworld, etcetera. Does that sound workable?
23 May, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 58th comment:
Votes: 0
Hint: the hot dog is the core of the dish, and thus the text display of the MUD. The mustard is the ASCII map, great as a relish to add to the dish, but not so great passed off as the main ingredient.
23 May, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 59th comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
This makes me think of something. So you have your individual devs with their muds. Then you have people saying, why don't these devs band together and make one Super Mud ™ since then they could pool their efforts. And also plamzi has talked about devs banding together with a similar UI and so on, but their individual games.

What about individual devs with their games (with perhaps quite different mechanics and so on), agreeing on a shared world concept where the content all takes place in the same world. Then reusing a lot of the same art assets could make sense. Maybe one mud has one continent, another mud as a different continent, another mud is mostly in the Underworld, etcetera. Does that sound workable?


The only problem with that is the transition from one region to another. While it's certainly feasable for several MUD's to collaborate and each depict specific parts of a shared world/universe, it's also inevitable that players will want to travel from one region to another. The technology to do this has been around forever.. I think AberMUD had portals, I know you could do this via FluffOS's network objects, etc… The hard part is getting these shared worlds to agree on compatible character data sets.

Consider… Mud A depicts the city-state of Athens and its surrounding lands. Mud B depicts Sparta. Mud C depicts Olympus and the Underworld. It's probably likely that Mud C will implement quite a few magical things that would go unused in the other two muds. It's also likely that Mud B would implement much more in terms of fighting gear and physical abilities than the others. How do you reconcile a player from Mud C traveling to Mud B. Do they keep their "summon Cerebrus" spell? If so, how is it balanced against the native equipment of Mud B? If not, what do they get instead?

If the muds in question were tightly integrated and shared code and data, but not world data, it would work fairly well… but that depends on your codebase. An LPMUD has no hard-and-fast line between elements, because every object is code. Trying to determine what objects would work between worlds would be annoying. You could certainly code them to only work on their native server, but then the player ends up with useless gear and talents… and if they pick up native gear/talents, what happens when they return home?

I think it's a good idea… but it would almost require the devs of all muds in question to share the majority of their code AND data, or simply disallow travel and try to come up with some reason for it. If done well, you could even have shared storylines, where changes in one world will affect the others… a great idea, but I can't see it work without all teams working closely on it. At that point, one has to ask why not make it a single MUD?
23 May, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 60th comment:
Votes: 0
What's the bun?

edit: I was thinking of no character transfer between muds. Maybe they're set in different time periods? Or some other IC reason, or simply an OOC one.
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