<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations --> <!--X-From-R13: "Xba O. Znzoreg" <wyflfvapNvk.argpbz.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:52:21 -0800 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 004a01bf63c2$1f60b520$020101df@JonLambert --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00197.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00199.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00177.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00203.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00198">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00198">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00198">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Jon A. Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:46:31 -0500</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> Marian Griffith wrote: > >> "Thy shall not insult or offend any member of the administration" >> and >> "Thy shall not insult or offend any player" > >> Note that the former is usually enforced with great enthusiasm, while >> enforcement of the latter is haphazard and oftentimes explicitly >> non-existent. > >> Any thoughts as to why this is so? > >That is easy :) The person's capable of executing the punishment are >all falling in the first category. So insulting an admin means you >are angering somebody capable of immediate and definitive retribution >Insulting a player means the victim must convince the same admin that >the insult was indeed worthy of being banned for. Unless you are very >creative or persistent the admin will have a lot more room for sober >reflection in the second case. > I really like the police analogy. Administrators in general behave very much like civilian police. They are just as likely to overreact or make assumptions when it comes to a known "perpetrator". I'l bet a lot of administrators even use "profiling" (i.e. users coming from AOL domains). A crime against a fellow officer invokes swift and harsh retribution. Constant complainers may endure longer response times, "domestic violence complaint again over at the EvilPK clan headquarters, who wants to handle it?". There are differences though. Civilian police (generally speaking) exist theoretically "to serve and protect". They don't _own_ the town, the citizens do. The must respond to demands and maintain their integrity. And that often breaks down. A badly adminstered mud can be very much like a corrupt town police force/government. IRL, Citizens usually have the power to take up pitchforks, overthrow the system and turn the buggers out. Something quite rare in the mud world, no? This is something Ola has posted quite frequently on. There are a lot of posts on this thread about ownership, who _owns_ the mud. I think Travis' game shop analogy is the best. (mostly because I'm familiar with a local game shop with that exact setup--- and has very mud-like problems... :) I have argued for and been in the camp of implementor ownership over user ownership. The other seems unnatural to me...that is it is antithetic to my held ideologies. I DO NOT want to discuss that here though, the roots of things, and whether they are rights or wrongs are don't matter here. But I do want to posit a setup that might be interesting, although I'm not certain how _stable_ it would be. Assume that the role of the administrator is solely that of a police officer or executive government. They may even be ranked in some heirarchy where there's a single authoritarian figure or committee at the top. This sort of administrator doesn't have anything to do with coding, building, security. Their roles are primarily behavior control, enforcement of law. And they have the means and level of trust to perform that role without recourse to a higher power. And what if these adminstrators were elected and deposed directly by users, and came from the user population. Now it would take quite a bit of patience for an implementor to sit idly by and wait for some stable form of social structure to develop on the mud, if ever. There may be some audiences (playerbases) with which it might be more effective. (something akin to the population of MOO/Mush world comes to mind though I may be wrong). This does not eliminate dissent, partisanship, corruption, and injustice, obviously. We're back to human nature again. And it definitely does not guarantee "good governance/good administration". However it does put power in the users' hands, perhaps a sense that this is our mud, we run things here. I suppose the one could accuse the owner of abject laziness and a total abrogation of responsibility. Is it really? Or have they given the users a valuable gift? An interesting experiment? Has anyone attempted anything like it? Is "the LambdaMOO" run anything like this? -- --* Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Email: jlsysinc#nospam,ix.netcom.com *-- --* Mud Server Developer's Page <<A HREF="http://jlsysinc.home.netcom.com">http://jlsysinc.home.netcom.com</A>> *-- --* "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson *-- _______________________________________________ MUD-Dev maillist - MUD-Dev#kanga,nu <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00203" HREF="msg00203.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matthew Mihaly <diablo#best,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00197.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00199.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00177.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00203.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00198"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00198"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00189" HREF="msg00189.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Rahul Sinha <a href="mailto:rsinha#glue,umd.edu">rsinha#glue,umd.edu</a>, Thu 20 Jan 2000, 23:42 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00191" HREF="msg00191.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 02:24 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00172" HREF="msg00172.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Thu 20 Jan 2000, 02:34 GMT </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00177" HREF="msg00177.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Thu 20 Jan 2000, 05:59 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00198" HREF="msg00198.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 03:52 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00203" HREF="msg00203.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 04:51 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00205" HREF="msg00205.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 06:37 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00208" HREF="msg00208.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 07:16 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00215" HREF="msg00215.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 22 Jan 2000, 05:40 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>