04 May, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
I've pre-documented the next big project for my game and would very much appreciate it if people experienced with craft systems can weigh in. Any red flags in what I'm proposing to do?

Thanks in advance!

Craft System Proposal
04 May, 2011, quixadhal wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
First question: Are the various crafts race-exclusive, or race-preferred?
04 May, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
First question: Are the various crafts race-exclusive, or race-preferred?


Not sure I understand what 'race-preferred' is but the idea is that each race will get six crafts (2 sets of 3) that are unique to it, and that's all. There will be no crafts shared by more than one race.

Races are currently under-differentiated in the game and I'm taking this opportunity to make them vastly different.
05 May, 2011, quixadhal wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
I personally wouldn't care for such a system, because I might prefer to craft a different combination of things than my race allows, especially if races and classes have limitations and interactions to consider.

However, it might be helpful to lay out what the various benefits are for each type of crafting. IE: do rings help more with magic users? That kind of stuff. If the race/class synergy is further strengthened by crafting, it makes it more likely your players will polarize into specialized roles, rather than dabblers.
05 May, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
I personally wouldn't care for such a system, because I might prefer to craft a different combination of things than my race allows


I suspect you're looking at it from the point of view of someone who prefers to have a bit of everything in one highly-customized character. By contrast, my game is already quite compartmentalized, with very strong class roles and limitations, and many incentives to have alts in all 14 classes and experience the game content in a different way. The goal is to encourage people to experiment with different race + class combinations, level up multiple chars, and sometimes to even recreate a given class in a different race.

Also, the game has a strong co-op aspect, which I believe will be enhanced if crafters had to network in order to create a well-balanced product.

quixadhal said:
However, it might be helpful to lay out what the various benefits are for each type of crafting. IE: do rings help more with magic users? That kind of stuff. If the race/class synergy is further strengthened by crafting, it makes it more likely your players will polarize into specialized roles, rather than dabblers.


You're right that the ring-making craft could use some specificity. Or maybe I could apply a kind of 'global synergy' to all crafts where the four base classes are more likely to produce items that benefit them. For instance, a thief making a ring is more likely to produce a +hitroll item, whereas a mage a +mana one. I think that would not only strengthen the synergy as you suggest, but would also be a natural extension to idea that is already present in some of the crafts where that a high-quality product may have some exceptional qualities, but only when worn by its maker (to avoid flooding the economy).
05 May, 2011, Chris Bailey wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
Plazmi said:
You're right that the ring-making craft could use some specificity. Or maybe I could apply a kind of 'global synergy' to all crafts where the four base classes are more likely to produce items that benefit them. For instance, a thief making a ring is more likely to produce a +hitroll item, whereas a mage a +mana one. I think that would not only strengthen the synergy as you suggest, but would also be a natural extension to idea that is already present in some of the crafts where that a high-quality product may have some exceptional qualities, but only when worn by its maker (to avoid flooding the economy).


Do this. Do it now.
05 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
plamzi said:
Or maybe I could apply a kind of 'global synergy' to all crafts where the four base classes are more likely to produce items that benefit them.

I use something similar for certain treasure drops (although based on item type rather than bonuses), and it's fairly effective. It reduces the likelyhood of players receiving rewards they can't use.
05 May, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
plamzi said:
Or maybe I could apply a kind of 'global synergy' to all crafts where the four base classes are more likely to produce items that benefit them.

I use something similar for certain treasure drops (although based on item type rather than bonuses), and it's fairly effective. It reduces the likelyhood of players receiving rewards they can't use.


I'll definitely add some kind of class-based 'slant' to products. On the other hand, I'm also OK with people often producing good or great stuff that their class can't use optimally. Even now, people are often moved to create a new alt just so they can take full advantage of an artifact they obtained–in a sense, the game offers char customizability via equipment. It already has a very strong emphasis on set building and I'd love to see the craft system extend that, just like I'd like to see it extend the emphasis on exploration by having materials drop all over the world (what I don't want is people sitting around passively crafting stuff ad nauseam).
05 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
I may have missed it, but why would someone actually 'play' a crafter and not just use the result for his alts ?
06 May, 2011, quixadhal wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
It depends on the game Rarva. I played crafters in EQ2 to the point that I had to get other people to farm mats for me, because I wasn't a high enough adventuring level to survive going where they occured to gather them myself. In a game with a real player-driven economy, and a crafting system that is fun, it's just as engrossing as bashing people over the head with a stick and taking their stuff.

However, you need a game where the economy allows crafters to become powerful (economically) AND where crafted items are only superceded by extremely rare or hard-to-get group content rewards. If people can just smack a dozen orcs or do a couple quests to get equivalent gear, nobody will bother buying it, and thus nobody will bother making it.
06 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
However, you need a game where the economy allows crafters to become powerful (economically) AND where crafted items are only superceded by extremely rare or hard-to-get group content rewards. If people can just smack a dozen orcs or do a couple quests to get equivalent gear, nobody will bother buying it, and thus nobody will bother making it.

Now if you coud give an example about how a crafter can be powerful in a mud, I could see.
I can only imagine that he can hire more mercenaries this way but exept than that I really do not see. Especially since people would just have to kill him to get their money back.
06 May, 2011, quixadhal wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
If I am the only one who can craft the Epic Purple Sword of a Thousand Cuts, I am powerful in the game. If you want one, you have to buy it from me, or try to kill someone else who already has purchased one from me, using your inferior weapon.

Raw numbers isn't the only measure of power, unless your game is designed for children who only care about getting hits that are OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!!
06 May, 2011, Runter wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
Being powerful is sort of relative to what players of the game find to be important. What happens when you have a crafting system in a game without combat/killing? What happens when the game is all about crafting? Then you seem pretty powerful by just being the best at crafting.
06 May, 2011, Lyanic wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
The crafting system looks good from a top level view, but it seems like a lot of missed opportunities. I was initially going to post what Quix already posted - why restrict to classes? I'll buy the co-op/networking idea, though. It wouldn't be my personal choice, but there's nothing wrong with going that direction. The biggest missed opportunity to me seems to be a lack of diversity in the actual in-game benefits of using these different skills. I read through the whole design, and almost everything seemed to state that it increases one of hitroll, damroll, hp, mp, mv, etc… It's just very oldschool - not a lot of thinking outside of the box. If that's what you're going for, feel free to ignore my post.
07 May, 2011, plamzi wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
Lyanic said:
The crafting system looks good from a top level view, but it seems like a lot of missed opportunities. I was initially going to post what Quix already posted - why restrict to classes? I'll buy the co-op/networking idea, though. It wouldn't be my personal choice, but there's nothing wrong with going that direction. The biggest missed opportunity to me seems to be a lack of diversity in the actual in-game benefits of using these different skills. I read through the whole design, and almost everything seemed to state that it increases one of hitroll, damroll, hp, mp, mv, etc… It's just very oldschool - not a lot of thinking outside of the box. If that's what you're going for, feel free to ignore my post.


Crafts will be restricted by race, not class. That the mods are old-school is a very fair comment. The thing is that there aren't a lot of custom item properties at the moment–the codebase is fairly antiquated in this respect. But when the crafting system is in place, there will be an incentive to add more custom properties to items. For instance, some crafts can be made to produce items with PvP bonuses, bonuses against undead or evil creatures, a wider variety of permanent affects, items that boost skills/spells, etc. All that will come, but not immediately.
07 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
If I am the only one who can craft the Epic Purple Sword of a Thousand Cuts, I am powerful in the game.

Only if people cannot do without.
Only if they cannot have it by having a crafter themselves (crafting is usually something that does not need a lot of action, so you can do it with an alt easily while doing something else with your main char, the active one). Only if they cannot rip you off from it easily.
Etc….
My point still is:why rely on somebody else for your crafting ? If the crafter cannot gather himself the component needed, who is really dependant in the first place anyway ?
My own craft system (not finished yet, because it is a lot of work for parameters..takes ages to tyep all of them) will limit the items to the crafter class. Only lower level items crafted will be available to anyone.
Because I want the craft class to be able to gather its items themselves AND be a class you can play on your own.
but my mud is combat oriented, economy is more immortals driven than player one (mainly cause I do not want to have any gold farmers in the first place, I make so money cannot give you an edge in anything)
07 May, 2011, quixadhal wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
If your crafting system is not engaging enough to be a full time effort, then it's a poor crafting system.
If your crafting system is simplistic enough that anyone can easily master it and produce any items in it with ease, it's a poor crafting system.

You seem to have experienced crafting systems that are an afterthought, rather than an integral part of the game. There are plenty of those, and they are indeed easy for anyone to master with alt characters. In the MMO world, World of Warcraft's crafting falls into this category. It's a very simple turn mats into items via a button push system. On the other hand, games like Everquest II (at launch) had a crafting system that required you to actually perform the crafting operation (via a mini-game) that was difficult to master. Failed attempts destroyed rare materials. To become a master at any of the crafting professions, you had to put as much time in as an adventurer did AND work with other crafters since all the professions relied on components from others.
07 May, 2011, KaVir wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
If your crafting system is not engaging enough to be a full time effort, then it's a poor crafting system.
If your crafting system is simplistic enough that anyone can easily master it and produce any items in it with ease, it's a poor crafting system.

You're overgeneralising. The complexity and effort required by your crafting system should depend entirely on your design goals. If crafting is supposed to play only a minor role, then designing a highly complex crafting system isn't just a waste of your time and resources - it also indicates a failure to recognise your target audience.

One size doesn't fit all.
07 May, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
It's a very simple turn mats into items via a button push system. On the other hand, games like Everquest II (at launch) had a crafting system that required you to actually perform the crafting operation (via a mini-game) that was difficult to master

Interesting an indeed a nice solution, but problem with a mud is those minigames things are very easy to bot/script, and I suspect it only works in everquests because they control the client.
Considering I am working on crafting as well, I would be interested to see any solution applied to mud that cannot be botted. Since my own solution to the bot problem is to limit crafted items to the craft class.
07 May, 2011, Runter wrote in the 20th comment:
Votes: 0
Re making crafting difficult to master

The system I've designed works so that any and all items unless flagged by developers in the game have defined patterns. To achieve this every item built must also have a materials list that adds up value to the desired ilevel. The ilevel determines the stats and amount of stats that may be on items. The difficulty surrounding just acquiring all useful patterns is very high since you only have a chance to discover the pattern when destroying the item personally, for non-standard craftables. In many cases the most desirable items cannot be transfered to an alt at all. In many cases people would rather keep the item than destroy it for a chance to learn to craft it. In addition to this, the quality of the crafted item has loss from the original pattern based slightly by the experience the crafter has with that profession, that class of item, and that specific item (weighted equally and summed). Oh, additionally if you try to reverse engineer an item crafted by someone else you inherit their stat loss for the pattern at the time of it being crafted. This creates a system where "cheap knockoffs" should exist and the difference between a master craftsman and a crafting alt should be obvious.
0.0/27