25 Jan, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 22nd comment:
quixadhal said:
If you *REALLY* want a plug-and-go system, you'd want to build a virtual machine image file of a linux distribution WITH dead souls installed and ready to run at boot time. This is also quite doable, but requires someone dedicated to updating the VM image as driver/mudlib/distro changes happen
The best solution, as most of the work you will do for yourself since you would work it as your developpment environment.
(At least that is how I do, I mostly code on windows/cygwin as I prefer this OS for other needs, but the target being a linux server, I have a virtual image where I have the exact same environment so I can not only test the target system, but also use Valgrind as well. If a new coder were wanting to work, I would give him this Virtual Image so he would not have to configure a single thing and have everything on a silver platter, free for him to keep it or adapt it to its need)
26 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 23rd comment:
@rarva
Exactly, that's where we want to get, a public Amazon virtual machine :) for people that are not sys-admins, which would be the majority :)
@cratylus
From the Unix installation file:
2) cd to fluffos-2
There is no such folder. While it is fair to say that would be impractical to have binaries for all linuxes, I would love, if you could, to have all files in our official Open Mud repository.
Would it be possible to have an Open Mud repository where we have all the necessary files, so our users will not have to go other places? In the era of 149 character tweets it is time consuming and discouraging… People being easily distracted elsewhere :)
A.
Exactly, that's where we want to get, a public Amazon virtual machine :) for people that are not sys-admins, which would be the majority :)
@cratylus
From the Unix installation file:
2) cd to fluffos-2
There is no such folder. While it is fair to say that would be impractical to have binaries for all linuxes, I would love, if you could, to have all files in our official Open Mud repository.
Would it be possible to have an Open Mud repository where we have all the necessary files, so our users will not have to go other places? In the era of 149 character tweets it is time consuming and discouraging… People being easily distracted elsewhere :)
A.
26 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 24th comment:
@quixadhal
If we can have a git repository with all the needed software, I could take care to update/produce new versions of the Amazon virtual machine when the code is updated. The game would start at the VM startup.
I think we need a reference repository with a driver/mudlib/start-stop scripts. For linux it is ok to be in source code format with build instructions.
@all
Why Amazon? one would ask.
1. For new accounts, one can run the MUD/dev for free for one year.
2. It is easy to start a spot instance and we can provide detailed instructions. The interface is web based, at the level of complexity of ebay :)
3. Members of the community can offer starting up/running the instance as a service for who is interested, probably with the help of the access control feature of Amazon.
4. A VMWare (or other local VM env) virtual machine could get quite big and probably it would be hard to host for download, because of the costs.
5. A local VM requires intial setup and sofware that might be a strong deterrent for users, in the context of day to day life constraints.
6. A local VM needs additional administration to let people connect and most importantly requires your computer on. To do this securely is probably beyond the scope of a power-user.
7. If you are on the road, you'd need to have your computer running at all time…
8. I still hope the beginners will take advantage of the academy. A public VM would make things easier for both more advanced coders and people who want to run a game, without being stuck with sysadmin tasks.
We all are busy, with jobs and families. As someone remarked, the main problem is the time. We could make the time with little things that allow focus on the tasks that we love most, as creating the game, writing and playing it :)
A.
If we can have a git repository with all the needed software, I could take care to update/produce new versions of the Amazon virtual machine when the code is updated. The game would start at the VM startup.
I think we need a reference repository with a driver/mudlib/start-stop scripts. For linux it is ok to be in source code format with build instructions.
@all
Why Amazon? one would ask.
1. For new accounts, one can run the MUD/dev for free for one year.
2. It is easy to start a spot instance and we can provide detailed instructions. The interface is web based, at the level of complexity of ebay :)
3. Members of the community can offer starting up/running the instance as a service for who is interested, probably with the help of the access control feature of Amazon.
4. A VMWare (or other local VM env) virtual machine could get quite big and probably it would be hard to host for download, because of the costs.
5. A local VM requires intial setup and sofware that might be a strong deterrent for users, in the context of day to day life constraints.
6. A local VM needs additional administration to let people connect and most importantly requires your computer on. To do this securely is probably beyond the scope of a power-user.
7. If you are on the road, you'd need to have your computer running at all time…
8. I still hope the beginners will take advantage of the academy. A public VM would make things easier for both more advanced coders and people who want to run a game, without being stuck with sysadmin tasks.
We all are busy, with jobs and families. As someone remarked, the main problem is the time. We could make the time with little things that allow focus on the tasks that we love most, as creating the game, writing and playing it :)
A.
26 Jan, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 25th comment:
aelyah said:
@cratylus
From the Unix installation file:
2) cd to fluffos-2
There is no such folder. While it is fair to say that would be impractical to have binaries for all linuxes, I would love, if you could, to have all files in our official Open Mud repository.
From the Unix installation file:
2) cd to fluffos-2
There is no such folder. While it is fair to say that would be impractical to have binaries for all linuxes, I would love, if you could, to have all files in our official Open Mud repository.
I'll let Quix speak to that. I don't maintain his repository, he does.
The official Dead Souls distribution I maintain has all the materials I described.
aelyah said:
While it is fair to say that would be impractical to have binaries for all linuxes, I would love, if you could, to have all files in our official Open Mud repository.
I would love, if you could, for you to get me a pegasus unicorn for my birthday.
I am not averse to someone (who is skilled and familiar with the process) putting together Linux distribution packages of DS.
I have not, to this point, seen any advantage in doing this myself, else I would have done so already.
DS is obscenely easy to install as it is.
-Crat
http://dead-souls.net
26 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 26th comment:
@cratylus
Yeah, what I basically asked Quix was to update his lastest mudlib openmud repo with fluff os.
As you said, I could do this myself, in a separate repo and I am grateful for your permission. The idea is community involvement and the more tasks done by different members of the community, the better.
Many users will agree with you, your distro is very simple to set up, more people mIght get a bit confused…
Speaking of outlandish requests, is nice to know your secret wish for a birthday gift is a Pegasus unicorn :)
I prefer thinking of 6 impossible things before breakfast.
One of them was that a member of the community, other than myself will go and build a repo on github as easy to build as your default distro…
Would you be interested to do this, quixdhal ?
A.
Yeah, what I basically asked Quix was to update his lastest mudlib openmud repo with fluff os.
As you said, I could do this myself, in a separate repo and I am grateful for your permission. The idea is community involvement and the more tasks done by different members of the community, the better.
Many users will agree with you, your distro is very simple to set up, more people mIght get a bit confused…
Speaking of outlandish requests, is nice to know your secret wish for a birthday gift is a Pegasus unicorn :)
I prefer thinking of 6 impossible things before breakfast.
One of them was that a member of the community, other than myself will go and build a repo on github as easy to build as your default distro…
Would you be interested to do this, quixdhal ?
A.
26 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 27th comment:
quixadhal said:
On most unix variants, building an executable amounts to editing a config file (or using ./configure if autoconfig was used to build it), and typing make && make install. That's about as simple as you're gonna get. Distributing linux binaries is possible, but not practical because of the wide variety of linux distributions and build environments out there.
The link you posted for fluffos doesn't use configure :). It does have an equivalent though. So yes, after building the driver I am getting a function not found error - find_player in communication.c .
Did you do any changes to the fluffos distro you recommended to have the mudlib work with it?
I had to make 2 changes in local_options:
1. Undef the zlib options, as the build doesn't generate -lz options
2. Define array as a reserved word
What other changes are needed to be able to run the mudlib on github?
A.
27 Jan, 2012, quixadhal wrote in the 28th comment:
When I setup the DS repository, Crat and I talked briefly about it, and decided it would probably be best to specifically NOT include the driver itself, because that's a seperate project run by a different team of people. I may well add a seperate git repository for FluffOS, but I'd want to take the time to generate a full back history, as I did with Dead Souls, so one can browse back at least to the point Fluff forked off from MudOS.
Now, it's not hard to (locally) place a git repository inside another git repository. So, you could clone the DS repository, make a local change to the .gitignore file to add a fluffos directory, then clone the fluffos repository into that. But I'd like to keep the two distinct, in case someone from either team wants to step up and actually maintain it properly on their end, rather than letting me be the horse trader in the middle. :)
My suggestion is not to try and force a single repository into the shape you need for a running environment, but rather write a couple of shell scripts that will clone/unpack/manipulate the material into such a shape and generate your VM from it.
Now, it's not hard to (locally) place a git repository inside another git repository. So, you could clone the DS repository, make a local change to the .gitignore file to add a fluffos directory, then clone the fluffos repository into that. But I'd like to keep the two distinct, in case someone from either team wants to step up and actually maintain it properly on their end, rather than letting me be the horse trader in the middle. :)
My suggestion is not to try and force a single repository into the shape you need for a running environment, but rather write a couple of shell scripts that will clone/unpack/manipulate the material into such a shape and generate your VM from it.
27 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 29th comment:
All is good :) Someone will probably always be the horse trader, as the mudlib and the driver must be made to work together. I see what you're saying though and the way you suggested is fine.
Just that fluffos 2.23 doesn't work with the mudlib you put on git :) - see my previous message - where is that find_player function defined ?
Can you add/make a separate repository/whatever way you see it with the fluffos version that works with the mudlib code ?
A.
Just that fluffos 2.23 doesn't work with the mudlib you put on git :) - see my previous message - where is that find_player function defined ?
Can you add/make a separate repository/whatever way you see it with the fluffos version that works with the mudlib code ?
A.
27 Jan, 2012, quixadhal wrote in the 30th comment:
It does work, but you have to use the correct options.
I know this, because I usually upgrade to the latest driver from Wodan. You may need to compare the local_options files between versions, as well as supply values to any new options that were added in the newer driver version.
I'm pretty sure this works, unless I forgot to commit it since I last compiled the driver.
find_player() is an efun, which is defined in add_action.c (in the driver). If you have no_add_action defined, you won't get it compiled in.
I know this, because I usually upgrade to the latest driver from Wodan. You may need to compare the local_options files between versions, as well as supply values to any new options that were added in the newer driver version.
I'm pretty sure this works, unless I forgot to commit it since I last compiled the driver.
find_player() is an efun, which is defined in add_action.c (in the driver). If you have no_add_action defined, you won't get it compiled in.
27 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 31st comment:
After a series of runarounds it worked :)
I have 3 questions:
1. How do I get the driver/mudlib to ask me again for the admin character :)? The first time it failed to copy it to the creators folder (because of the runarounds ). I deleted every .o object I could find etc… I guess a more generic question is what do you need to remove to get a "fresh" mud, with no user info.
2. What are the DS and PCRE packages? It seems they are missing from fluffos, as the compilation fails when defined…
3. Any links to existing documentatin would be very appreciated.
A.
I have 3 questions:
1. How do I get the driver/mudlib to ask me again for the admin character :)? The first time it failed to copy it to the creators folder (because of the runarounds ). I deleted every .o object I could find etc… I guess a more generic question is what do you need to remove to get a "fresh" mud, with no user info.
2. What are the DS and PCRE packages? It seems they are missing from fluffos, as the compilation fails when defined…
3. Any links to existing documentatin would be very appreciated.
A.
27 Jan, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 32nd comment:
aelyah said:
After a series of runarounds it worked :)
I have 3 questions:
1. How do I get the driver/mudlib to ask me again for the admin character :)? The first time it failed to copy it to the creators folder (because of the runarounds ). I deleted every .o object I could find etc… I guess a more generic question is what do you need to remove to get a "fresh" mud, with no user info.
I have 3 questions:
1. How do I get the driver/mudlib to ask me again for the admin character :)? The first time it failed to copy it to the creators folder (because of the runarounds ). I deleted every .o object I could find etc… I guess a more generic question is what do you need to remove to get a "fresh" mud, with no user info.
I don't know what you did when you "deleted every .o" so I have to assume you now have an unstable mud and should just reinstall.
aelyah said:
2. What are the DS and PCRE packages? It seems they are missing from fluffos, as the compilation fails when defined…
The official DS distribution has a customized fluffos bundled in. This fluffos customization is probably why you have issues when you try to use vanilla fluffos with a lib that assumes you are using the customized bundled fluffos. Variance in expected packages is a symptom of this.
aelyah said:
3. Any links to existing documentatin would be very appreciated.
http://dead-souls.net/ds-admin-faq.html
http://dead-souls.net/ds-creator-faq.htm...
http://dead-souls.net/debugging.html
http://dead-souls.net/ds-faq.html
http://dead-souls.net/example.html
http://dead-souls.net/verbs.html
http://dead-souls.net/editor.html
http://dead-souls.net/RELEASE_NOTES
http://dead-souls.net/docs/
http://dead-souls.net/ds-charmode-faq.ht...
http://lpmuds.net/smf/index.php?board=3....
29 Jan, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 33rd comment:
The Amazon AMI is here.
The short story:
1. Use the Amazon public AMI ID ami-f7f5249e to start a virtual machine.
2. Start a ssh session.
cd /home/mud/haven_ds/bin
./startmud
3. telnet <your instance> 6666
4. Create the admin character
5. Enjoy
If you need detailed instruction on how to start an Amazon instance, connect to it via SSH and start/configure your Haven/Open Mud instance you canfind more details here.
I also sent a pull request to quix, to pull the ready-to-run changes in the original dead-souls repository. Maybe he can fix the missing packages (ds and pcre) problem. The code, as much as I tested it doesn't seem to have any issues, errors etc… even with the packages missing.
The next outlandish request is: if you have any dusty code, no matter the MUD/IF flavor, it would be really appreciated if you could "donate" it to the Open Mud effort.
Thank you,
A.
The short story:
1. Use the Amazon public AMI ID ami-f7f5249e to start a virtual machine.
2. Start a ssh session.
cd /home/mud/haven_ds/bin
./startmud
3. telnet <your instance> 6666
4. Create the admin character
5. Enjoy
If you need detailed instruction on how to start an Amazon instance, connect to it via SSH and start/configure your Haven/Open Mud instance you canfind more details here.
I also sent a pull request to quix, to pull the ready-to-run changes in the original dead-souls repository. Maybe he can fix the missing packages (ds and pcre) problem. The code, as much as I tested it doesn't seem to have any issues, errors etc… even with the packages missing.
The next outlandish request is: if you have any dusty code, no matter the MUD/IF flavor, it would be really appreciated if you could "donate" it to the Open Mud effort.
Thank you,
A.
03 Feb, 2012, EzBreezy wrote in the 34th comment:
Sorry, been very, very busy in real life :)
Anyway, I'm really interested in Dead Souls. If not for this project, but for my own small MUD that I've been dreaming about. I didn't know about the feature that allows anyone build and that may be something worth investing some time looking into.
And what is "TMI"? I'ts 5AM here and I don't think my brain has switched on yet.
Anyway, I'm really interested in Dead Souls. If not for this project, but for my own small MUD that I've been dreaming about. I didn't know about the feature that allows anyone build and that may be something worth investing some time looking into.
And what is "TMI"? I'ts 5AM here and I don't think my brain has switched on yet.
03 Feb, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 35th comment:
Awesome !
Would you be interested to contribute the domains you are writing to the Open Mud effort ?
A.
Would you be interested to contribute the domains you are writing to the Open Mud effort ?
A.
03 Feb, 2012, Cratylus wrote in the 36th comment:
EzBreezy said:
I didn't know about the feature that allows anyone build and that may be something worth investing some time looking into.
There are three things you can do:
Allow DS to operate in the default mode, which is that new players are players unless an admin makes them a creator.
Or, you can enable autowiz 1 , which makes it so that a new user is given a choice, upon character creation, to be a player or to be a creator.
Or, you can enable autowiz 2 , which makes it so that a new user is automatically made a creator, with no choice, unless she is later demoted to player by an admin.
I enabled those features largely for me, Cratylus, for my own purposes on my own mud.
While I do not necessarily discourage others from using autowiz on their DS muds, you must understand that creators are naturally mischievous and seek to find the borders of what they are allowed to do. If you enable autowiz, you should be confident that you understand the lib well enough that you can handle the pranking you must expect.
EzBreezy said:
And what is "TMI"?
TMI, "The Mud Institute", right now it's just an older unmaintained mudlib. You can play around with it, and other libs, downloading them from the lpmuds download page: http://lpmuds.net/downloads.html
-Crat
PS I havent got around to putting these autowiz functions in the "mudconfig" command yet, so you'll have to manually edit /secure/include/config.h and modify the AUTO_WIZ line accordingly
03 Feb, 2012, aelyah wrote in the 37th comment:
Cratylus said:
While I do not necessarily discourage others from using autowiz on their DS muds, you must understand that creators are naturally mischievous and seek to find the borders of what they are allowed to do. If you enable autowiz, you should be confident that you understand the lib well enough that you can handle the pranking you must expect.
I guess RESTRICT_INTERMUD is there for the same purpose.
On the different note, do you know what text-based dives should I check in search for those michievious creators who could push the borders of what they can do ?
Just in case some of them are lurking around here:
"You are cordially invited to check and push the boundaries of haven-ds.mudsings.com port 6666. Your efforts will be rewarded with eternal fame on our base on github and mudsings.com" :)
Together we could identify the current issues in the mud code and fix them. EzBreezy, you are welcome to see how it works on haven-ds while you set up your own little mud. Please let me know if you need help with it. The fantasy world idea on the blog is great, I am looking forward for the next chapter :)
A.
20 Feb, 2012, EzBreezy wrote in the 38th comment:
Heya :)
Sorry, somehow I missed the whole 2nd page of this thread and a few of Aelyeh's invitations. I apologize! Right now I'm finishing up a ton of small projects and errands that I have to do, which will drastically free up some time for myself. I'll be in contact!
Also, thanks for reading. I didn't expect anyone, too. Glad you like it :)
Sorry, somehow I missed the whole 2nd page of this thread and a few of Aelyeh's invitations. I apologize! Right now I'm finishing up a ton of small projects and errands that I have to do, which will drastically free up some time for myself. I'll be in contact!
Also, thanks for reading. I didn't expect anyone, too. Glad you like it :)
Random Picks
Crat could build a 32-bit i386 binary that was statically linked… but folks running on 64-bit machines wouldn't like it, nor anyone on a non-intel platform, nor anyone who might want (or not want) debugging info, etc.
If you *REALLY* want a plug-and-go system, you'd want to build a virtual machine image file of a linux distribution WITH dead souls installed and ready to run at boot time. This is also quite doable, but requires someone dedicated to updating the VM image as driver/mudlib/distro changes happen.
Another alternative would be to package the driver/mudlib up as a "package" which various linux distributions might use to install it. Again, the issue is different distros doing it differently. On Debian, you'd need a .deb package that apt-get can use. On Redhat, you'd need an .rpm. For BSD, you'd need a makefile compatible with the /usr/ports system.