09 Jan, 2013, Runter wrote in the 1st comment:
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I'm interested in using real world data that's freely available to create a mud that updates using that real world data. Map data, names of landmarks, traffic data, etc.

For starters, generating game space from the map spacial data. NPC naming conventions could come from landmark data, and NPC density and strength based on traffic data. Weather and temperature data can also be used for various things.

I wanted to see if anyone else might be interested in such a project?
09 Jan, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 2nd comment:
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I remember there was a brief conversation at Mudlab about this sort of thing – using real-world data to affect events in the mud.

I've also seen some mobile games (Runners Grinders is what I'm remembering) that do a similar thing.

It sounds interesting, the main challenge that I see is making the real-world data relevant to the player – otherwise that data is a bit of a black box and could be anything really. It could be the weather on Earth or Mars, but how is it relatable to the player? How do you make map data relevant to a player from Texas and a player from Berlin? If it isn't relevant, why not just make something up?
09 Jan, 2013, Runter wrote in the 3rd comment:
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Idealiad said:
I remember there was a brief conversation at Mudlab about this sort of thing – using real-world data to affect events in the mud.

I've also seen some mobile games (Runners Grinders is what I'm remembering) that do a similar thing.

It sounds interesting, the main challenge that I see is making the real-world data relevant to the player – otherwise that data is a bit of a black box and could be anything really. It could be the weather on Earth or Mars, but how is it relatable to the player? How do you make map data relevant to a player from Texas and a player from Berlin? If it isn't relevant, why not just make something up?


A) It's easier to use the data than to make up something.
B) It's relevant to people who live there, or would like to live there, or just like geography lessons.

I would have loved to play a similar game before moving to singapore to learn the locations, traffic patterns, and major highways.
09 Jan, 2013, Arithorn wrote in the 4th comment:
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I'm assuming that you're aware of Ingress / Niantic Project ? While not mud related, it's a really interesting experiment in Augmented reality games
09 Jan, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 5th comment:
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Basically you want to be in the Matrix ? :)
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 6th comment:
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Runter said:
A) It's easier to use the data than to make up something.
B) It's relevant to people who live there, or would like to live there, or just like geography lessons.


A) Prove that. I don't believe you. I could make that data up (game space/NPC naming conventions/NPC density and strength) just as easily as having it generated by traffic/landmarks/etc. In fact, I would consider that to be a creative endeavor that, as a game designer, might even be enjoyable, and in all likelihood, could generate an environment that is more fun for players to explore/battle in than something generated by unrelated data.
B) Do people who live there, would like to live there, or who like geography lessons play your MUD? How do you know? Even saying those people DO play your MUD, how do you know they will like mobs populated by their local traffic? Maybe their local traffic is great for thursday afternoon shopping but sucks for thursday afternoon powerleveling. Maybe they like playing your MUD because it is NOTHING LIKE THE REAL WORLD. Jus'sayin'.

Not trying to be negative, I just feel your answers (A & B) made some assumptions that, uhh, might not be correct.
10 Jan, 2013, Runter wrote in the 7th comment:
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I think your point is bad about people wanting games "nothing like the real world." It's simply not true. You wouldn't be controlling humanoids, on presumably a planet with soil beneath you, with creatures straight out of our world, swinging swords, shooting lasers, flying spacecraft, wearing items, drinking from waterskins, or killing frisky fidos if you were playing a game not based on reality in significant ways. We're just going to disagree on what the threshold is for based on reality it should be.

A) It depends on how good you are at making stuff up (X), and how good you are at programming (Y), and how much content you already have created (C). The test looks like this. Y - X > C
Needless to say it is different for every person, but if it's provable in at least once case then it's found to be true.
And being more or less fun has nothing to do with the point I made.

B) I responded to the original question asking who the data might be relevant to. If you don't like the fact that the data is relevant to those three groups I mentioned, well, that's rather beside the point I was making. It has nothing to do with saying how more or less fun it is. So if you want to debate that then please coherently separate your arguments instead of conflating things.

Actually, if you want to look at it logically, for the purposes I listed, it just has to be more fun to play the game than to study google map. I could be snarky and ask you to prove that it isn't, but that would just make me an ass for making the assumption that you have to prove something to me on a brainstorming thread.
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 8th comment:
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You're being pedantic and arguing over semantics, deliberately misunderstanding the points I addressed. If you were on a professional dev team for a commercial title and you had proposed a game configuration based on real world data, you would have been asked to support that concept - namely, why is it better than the alternative, is there a target audience, is that audience the same audience the other elements of our game attracts, etc.

Runter said:
A) It depends on how good you are at making stuff up (X), and how good you are at programming (Y), and how much content you already have created (C). The test looks like this. Y - X > C
Needless to say it is different for every person, but if it's provable in at least once case then it's found to be true.

Obviously. I didn't really need you to answer that though. I was pointing out the inherent fallacy in your blanket statement, "It's easier to use data than to make something up." Easier? Easier to produce… what? A game that's enjoyable? That sells? Or a game that is incoherent? How is it easier? I have to find some interface between my game and this foreign data - traffic data, geographical maps, etc. as well as to the players. I need their location, and real time updates on this data. How reliable are the sources? Are they 3rd party? Can I guarantee that traffic data will continue to be supplied for the life of my game?

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And being more or less fun has nothing to do with the point I made.
These are called "games" for a reason. Being fun is critical. If what you're contributing to the discussion is contributed without consideration of the context, it's not really a contribution.
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 9th comment:
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I responded the way I did because you basically took Idealiad's response and said, "No. You're wrong."

Only, after looking at your response to Idealiad's response, my thought was, "No. You're wrong."

If it's a brainstorming thread, brainstorm. Don't assume you have the handle on something and no one else can. His point was completely valid; "How do you ensure that the data used is relevant to the players in your game?"

Your end response? " If you don't like the fact that the data is relevant to those three groups I mentioned, well, that's rather beside the point I was making. It has nothing to do with saying how more or less fun it is."

We're talking about a game, and a way to populate data in the game. It has everything to do with how much fun it is - that's what is relevant to game players. Period.
10 Jan, 2013, Runter wrote in the 10th comment:
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You may think you're the only professional here working in a game dev shop, but you'd be mistaken. Anyways, credential dropping is rather boring. So I'd instead ask you to stay focused on the topic instead of appeals to authority. If you can't respond to my points in a coherent way then I don't think I'll respond to yours in kind any longer. It's an easy cop out to say things like "It has everything to do with how much fun it is - that's what is relevant to game players. Period." when I clearly have said more than once the audience isn't a faceless generic player.
10 Jan, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 11th comment:
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Relevant data has the advantage of being believable. That makes suspension of disbelief a lot easier. Many games in so called 'realisitc environment' totally fail at that making them look totally ridiculous. Humans are very good at recognising some pattern as it is a safety system. We recognise a cat, not because it looks like a cat , but more like how it moves. Have a model looking like a cat and that does not move exactly like a cat and our brain will just say wtf is that. Make an alien, the brain does not care, no reference point, so whatever animation is good enough.
It is the same for many many many, things. So if you want to have a realistic environment, just pick real datas. Want to make a world sit in the fifties, use names from this era, not from ours. Basic details like that looks like they have no importance, but on the contrary, they make all the differences.
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 12th comment:
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Runter said:
You may think you're the only professional here working in a game dev shop, but you'd be mistaken. Anyways, credential dropping is rather boring. So I'd instead ask you to stay focused on the topic instead of appeals to authority.

I don't think that. That's why I deliberately avoided dropping any credentials. (see above). My post has been completely on topic, simply supported with real world experience.

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If you can't respond to my points in a coherent way then I don't think I'll respond to yours in kind any longer.
I have made multiple coherent responses. You've failed to address any of them with any real consideration. You talked about me mentioning work experience, which was a supporting detail to a main point, but didn't bother talking about the main point. At this point, you not responding would be welcome. Conserve bandwidth, or something..

Rarva.Riendf said:
Relevant data has the advantage of being believable. That makes suspension of disbelief a lot easier.
I agree, but populating mobs by traffic data doesn't automatically equal realism. That only works if the data correlates to the game world. At a given time, traffic might be light. If the setting of your game is a real world environment where mobs are armoured vehicles that try to kill you while you travel from A to B, suddenly you have realism. Rush hour traffic in your real world, real time = lots of enemies in the game. Rush hour traffic = a bunch of orcs walking around a forest between two villages does not increase realism. Is there something of value between those two villages that would draw out so many orcs? Etc.
10 Jan, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 13th comment:
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Idealiad said:
I remember there was a brief conversation at Mudlab about this sort of thing – using real-world data to affect events in the mud.

Do you mean the thread "In-game representations of out-of-game a..."?

Personally I think it would be pretty cool to have a mud set in the modern world that used real-world maps and weather. You'd need to be careful not to scatter the playerbase too much, but I could easily envision a game based on (to give a random example) something like "Monster Hunter International", where players all belong to the same organisation, and can take on missions that require international travel.
10 Jan, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 14th comment:
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KaVir said:
Personally I think it would be pretty cool to have a mud set in the modern world that used real-world maps and weather. You'd need to be careful not to scatter the playerbase too much, but I could easily envision a game based on (to give a random example) something like "Monster Hunter International", where players all belong to the same organisation, and can take on missions that require international travel.


Hah the joy to go through airpot security and having flight delayed and baggage loss :). You really need to provide something 'fun' to do at any time when you start using IRL data though. because IRL is not much fun for most people to begin with. Kinda like the Matrix again.
10 Jan, 2013, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 15th comment:
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yue said:
Rush hour traffic in your real world, real time = lots of enemies in the game. Rush hour traffic = a bunch of orcs walking around a forest between two villages does not increase realism. Is there something of value between those two villages that would draw out so many orcs? Etc.


Well you missed the part when I was talking about relevant data from the good era…using data from 2012 to apply to a medieval setting is shit.
Now try with real data from medevial age and it will much more credible. Number of weaponsmith per village, peasants, armies number and eq etc.
10 Jan, 2013, yue wrote in the 16th comment:
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Good point! That I like and I could see it working really solidly.
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