It's a recurring problem where different attitudes collide. As I pointed out it seems typically a conflict between those who rely on a chain of authority to settle a dispute opposed to a logical argument, both parties are confused by the approach of the other party.

Well, some/a lot of those globals weren't even used. I just hadn't gotten around to removing them yet. I'm not specifically sure about player_list at that time, but just to be clear, there's a big difference between using globals for actually global data and using globals for something that should be localized. Like temporary strings and results. I'd still prefer to see globals in container namespaces, but if they're truly for global purposes it may make sense.

If you can actually know ahead of time that your solo code will remain solo code, then it's your own business – 100% agreed. But as we touched upon slightly earlier, one of the biggest sources of code messiness is people thinking that some piece of code will be a throwaway prototype and remain so forever, and then – be it through laziness, momentum, pressure from other tasks – the code becomes encrusted into the application and never quite go away.

My belief here is that you can train yourself to spend those extra few minutes (or even less) now, and be able to save huge, huge amounts of time later. Just to be clear, obviously sometimes you need to get quick'n'dirty and "just go with it", never mind the cost later. But most of the time this is not the case.

And somebody – sorry I don't remember who – touched upon this earlier as well: in our community code tends to get shared around eventually, and I think a lot of people have learned to program by following the example of "throwaway prototype" coding: they have taken bad habits as "the way" of doing things. That's pretty unfortunate. What if instead the most popular bases out there had been written with future developers in mind?

Sorry I have no idea what issue(s) you are referring to nor exactly what sort of regurgitations you'd like 'us' to suppress.
I started programming professionally in 1985 and took my first programming course in 1980. I didn't start programming on muds until 1995 or so.
And it's not like I didn't go through the "latest technology and practices are the greatest thing since sliced bread phases" either.
I was a little C++ object-oriented uber alles nazi in the late 90's.
…but I got better.



That's pretty ignorant. Newbies like having their questions answered correctly.

1985– A good year.

Indeed. I was born that year.

Ok Tyche-

You said this is an issue of pragmatists vs purists. It's not. I made a post of very real, very common issues that frequently arise in professional programming environments by the misuse of globals. Indeed, I took the time to explain in some depth the specific issues I've encountered to be more constructive and informative than "Globals are bad." It has nothing to do with the debate you mentioned nor is it a result of some object-oriented ber-alles nazi brainwashing.

I'm very familiar with the type of programmer you're talking about (or the attitude). I just think it's equally ignorant to assume that someone who's experienced with the common pitfalls surrounding global namespace pollution and offering reasonably sound advice concerning said issues is automatically one of those new-age brainwashed coders you'd find diligently forging 'correct' code for Microsoft or some other arrogant software firm.

"Like letting newbies know in their welcome post that – to get the best help with problems – they should post language specific questions in the languages' respective sub-forum and avoid or ignore Tyche."

I was joking. You started it with the 'crawling out of the deep dark Diku valley' comment. :wink:

In this post I addressed the 'trolling'. In this post I asked you for an explanation regarding your post to better understand where you're coming from and possibly learn from the point you're trying to make.

I don't need to hear your credentials and I don't really care where you went to school or didn't. It's not about where we've been, it's about where we're going. As it happens, I didn't learn to program in a Computer Science class.

The bike shed should be blue.

Sanko, I hate to say it, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time. :sad: I wish you weren't, but…… :thinking:
FWIW, I think his real enemy here is me, and his snarky comments were directed at me. There's no need to fight that fight. :smile:

True enemy. Reveal thyself, o villain.

David, I hate to admit it but I'm afraid you're right - I have been trolled.

FWIW, being his unreal enemy is kind of fun.

When there is no proper authority it's indeed the safest bet to create your own authority, and declare those who do not acknowledge it a public enemy, or on the internet, a troll.

As always it's a difficult choice between ignoring the opposition or actively opposing them, and unlike Mubarak you're not getting money for nothing, or chicks for free, making the entire effort borderline pathetic.

Well, since there's no "proper" authorities on the subject of software design who has written anything about the use of global variables I guess we need to defer to Scandum. /sarcasm

Forget your well reasoned arguments against using global variables. Scandum has determined they aren't actually valid opposing points.

"Authority" and "education" have nothing to do with each other.
I feel the kind of thinking centered around
assessing the skill or capacity or intelligence
of my peers is fundamentally
detrimental to productivity (in any thread).

In my experience, I learn best and get the most done
when I spend more time trying things and asking questions
than I do trying to determine who - or if I - have the answers.

Offer your experience, don't offer your experience -
but wasting so much energy trying to measure
ourselves against one another is not only
counter-productive to MUD development
but also futile.

And that's why we spent 3 pages to determine if someone is trolling or not?

offtopic


I wasn't making a joke. I don't know why my comment on that "Muds and Technology" thread in response to your assertion that Havok was a troll is at all relevant. There seem to be similar patterns in the "jokes" in your post. Like this one…"In case you missed English on your way over to CS-whatever the hell you failed…" and this one… "Similarly, if you frequent Mudbytes diligently for a long enough period of time, you might see Tyche post something constructive."

It's possible that by making personal attacks and hopping across threads calling various people trolls, some people might get the mistaken impression that they aren't "jokes" and you're an asshole. That would be unfortunate.
/offtopic

Good point.

For some reason I couldn't edit the above post and forgot to reply..

..but I wanted to clarify, by 'good point' I meant 'you should re-read all of my posts and your 'responses' to them while reflecting on the advice you just gave me'.

I clearly and openly stated I was going to troll you. I also posted legitimate, on-topic discussion specifically addressing your contributions to the discussions. You've responded to exactly none of the relevant, constructive posts (and certainly didn't go into any real depth after dropping all your fancy terms in the globals thread) but haven't missed a single piece of troll-bait.

I figure, you dropped the A-bomb first, so..

your surrender is accepted.. thank you for playing Troll-Busters.

edit: btw I thought your [offtopic] and [/offtopic] were pretty cute.. like you had previously contributed anything to this thread that was really [ontopic]

Hey – it's better for people to get the accurate impression that you're an asshole, rather than the "mistaken impression". :wink:

I re-read Tyche's contributions to this thread and find no basis for the above observations. He is, as usual, succinct, and on point. Some of his "fancy terms", if one takes the time to look them up, may teach one something new.

If you don't think a post or a poster is fruitful, find one that you think is, and steer the discussion towards it. Useless bickering over who's a troll far exceeds the damage done by any actual trolling.