08 Mar, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 21st comment:
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Quote
So no, I got your point, but perhaps you thought you were making a different one.

Actually no you did not. And my english may suck but still, most does not mean 'everything'. Sorting through the junk cannot be done by someone in the learning stage. Hence better use academic ressources that may be a little dry, but actually teach you how to code properly instead of the usual quick and dirty hack you find everywhere.
And in C, there are way more dirty hack than proper source.
Go find a trim code in C that is not piss poor ? just give me a link and I will tell you the problem there is for a newbie.

Then you will go look for the source of Boost library for the same code to see what is proper code and understand my point (maybe).
08 Mar, 2011, Orrin wrote in the 22nd comment:
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Rarva.Riendf said:
Actually no you did not. And my english may suck but still, most does not mean 'everything'. Sorting through the junk cannot be done by someone in the learning stage. Hence better use academic ressources that may be a little dry, but actually teach you how to code properly instead of the usual quick and dirty hack you find everywhere.
And in C, there are way more dirty hack than proper source.
Go find a trim code in C that is not piss poor ? just give me a link and I will tell you the problem there is for a newbie.

Then you will go look for the source of Boost library for the same code to see what is proper code and understand my point (maybe).

Re-read what you actually posted. If you want people to make allowances for the fact that English is not your first language you have to meet them half way and not make sweeping generalisations that are misleading and inaccurate.
08 Mar, 2011, Miker wrote in the 23rd comment:
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Please take the argument elsewhere.

Anyway, having learned by mucking around in SWR and SMAUG and a few other DIKU's, I say it is a decent way to learn if that's all you want to do. On the other hand, if you wish to program for a living, I would suggest programming classes because they will teach you more modern things than the 90's C of the DIKU family. I am still stuck in that mindset, but then again, I like doing things differently.
08 Mar, 2011, Vigud wrote in the 24th comment:
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08 Mar, 2011, Cratylus wrote in the 25th comment:
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Miker said:
Please take the argument elsewhere.


You forgot to use the moderator color and font.

In any case, since everyone seems to be letting the newbie slip into the big wooden box of
rusty blades that is C/C++, I guess I'll just reiterate a point weakly made previously:

Oten,

You don't have to use C/C++, and in fact, my guess is that it is exactly the wrong thing for you.

Consider a layman who wants a house, and decides to build one himself. He gets books on carpentry,
he spends hours learning about joists and shims and bims and schlims and after weeks of working on
his house finally has a handle on getting the beams to work together and SIMULTANEOUSLY he has
been reading up on plumbing and wiring.

So he works on his house, working on his skills, building from the foundation up, because he didn't want
some prefab house, he wanted to build the house according to his own vision.

Except, of course, that not knowing anything about architecting a house, when he's done, it's an
unusable rickety halfassed kludgy mess, because he had to re-engineer stuff after half making it
because he didn't know how to make it when he started, and he didn't realize the integration needs
of the components…because he had no idea that the components formed systems, never mind
the nature and design of those systems for optimal results.

If you want to learn to build the mud before learning how to design it, and you're ok with having
to throw away your work when done, then by all means. I think more than a few folks on here
learned deep truths about the universe and themselves taking that route.

If you just want to get a mud going and programming is just going to be a fun thing that
you're not really dedicating your life to, just get something you can modify without thrusting
your hands over and over into that wooden box of razors and scissors.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
08 Mar, 2011, Vigud wrote in the 26th comment:
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Starting with a language that is not C is fine as long as you don't plan on learning C later in the future. In other words, if you learn some crap like Python, you might never be able to learn programming in C properly.
08 Mar, 2011, Tyche wrote in the 27th comment:
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Rarva.Riendf said:
And in C, there are way more dirty hack than proper source.
Go find a trim code in C that is not piss poor ? just give me a link and I will tell you the problem there is for a newbie.

Then you will go look for the source of Boost library for the same code to see what is proper code and understand my point (maybe).


The last thing in the world I would do is point a beginning C programmer to the Boost library code. First, it's C++ for Christ sake. It is not "proper" C at all. Second, for the most part, the libraries are written using C++ generic programming concepts and are riddled with templated code. Learning to use the interface to standard libraries or boost is one thing, but I would not point someone even wanting to learn C++ to look at the Boost code either. Generic programming and templates are intermediate to advanced C++ topics, IMHO.

I'm not sure what you really mean by "proper" C or a "trim code".
I almost always point to the following mud as an illustrative example of well-written C.
[link=file]711[/link]
08 Mar, 2011, Vigud wrote in the 28th comment:
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It may be well-written, but it doesn't compile on my system. You're re-declaring CTIME. But this is material for a separate thread…
08 Mar, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 29th comment:
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May be well writen C (did not read it enough to tell) but totally lacks of comment there,hence no idea if you do string manipulation in place or not in string.c , so have to read the code to know how to free the pointers…definitely not newbie friendly.
And as an example ROM as a codebase is awfully written in C. So definitely not somethimg you should learn C with.

(and last time I checked CofeeMud was an awful mess in Java as well, probably written from someone coming from C without taking the time to properly learn the API)
08 Mar, 2011, Runter wrote in the 30th comment:
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Vigud said:
Starting with a language that is not C is fine as long as you don't plan on learning C later in the future. In other words, if you learn some crap like Python, you might never be able to learn programming in C properly.


^ Example of crappy advice you get online if you don't already know enough to sift through the rubbish.
08 Mar, 2011, Kalinash wrote in the 31st comment:
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Runter said:
Vigud said:
Starting with a language that is not C is fine as long as you don't plan on learning C later in the future. In other words, if you learn some crap like Python, you might never be able to learn programming in C properly.


^ Example of crappy advice you get online if you don't already know enough to sift through the rubbish.


Except that he's right… QQ
08 Mar, 2011, Vigud wrote in the 32nd comment:
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I wish I didn't say that, I feel we're stealing OP's topic.

I apologize for that troll attempt, please don't continue this thread.
08 Mar, 2011, sankoachaea wrote in the 33rd comment:
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Kalinash said:
Runter said:
Vigud said:
Starting with a language that is not C is fine as long as you don't plan on learning C later in the future. In other words, if you learn some crap like Python, you might never be able to learn programming in C properly.


^ Example of crappy advice you get online if you don't already know enough to sift through the rubbish.


Except that he's right… QQ

Example of why I'm suspect of most of the people posting here.

This is a great forum to get MUD specific advice, even relating to programming them.

This is a terrible forum to investigate what may or may not be the proper route to begin learning how to program..

..unless you're just looking for variety in answers.

Edit: Also, check out Dead Souls (http://www.dead-souls.net/) for a newbie friendly, minimalist, feature-rich, flexible, advanced codebase. It's not C++ but you don't seem to have anything major tying you to a specific language. If you're genuinely interested in C++ as a language, pick up Bjarne Stroustrup's book on the language, a workable linux distro (debian, ubuntu, etc.), and start investigating the language.
08 Mar, 2011, Kalinash wrote in the 34th comment:
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sankoachaea said:
..unless you're just looking for variety in answers.


I think the word you're looking for is "opinions"
08 Mar, 2011, sankoachaea wrote in the 35th comment:
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Kalinash said:
sankoachaea said:
..unless you're just looking for variety in answers.


I think the word you're looking for is "opinions"

No, I wasn't, but thanks anyway.
08 Mar, 2011, Cratylus wrote in the 36th comment:
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sankoachaea said:
Also, check out Dead Souls (http://www.dead-souls.net/) for a newbie friendly, minimalist, feature-rich, flexible, advanced codebase. It's not C++ but you don't seem to have anything major tying you to a specific language. If you're genuinely interested in C++ as a language, pick up Bjarne Stroustrup's book on the language, a workable linux distro (debian, ubuntu, etc.), and start investigating the language.


I was about to complain that my answer was great, but I think I like yours better :)

Only caveat…not really that minimalist, but you can customize the crap out of it so players don't see the default stuff.
08 Mar, 2011, sankoachaea wrote in the 37th comment:
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Minimalist made it in there on account of the limber-like flexibility.

It would take very little effort to strip what you don't want… well, you already know that.. but that was my thought when I wrote that.
08 Mar, 2011, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 38th comment:
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Except that he's right… QQ

Totally wrong, learning with C first is totally mad, you should start with assembler (and I mean that) at least some basic notion of it.
THEN you can understand what really are pointers, and from then learn to code properly. ;p
Half kidding….(but you better pick a good C book to learn, not randomly use tutorial on the net you know nothing about the author. Especially in C)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Progr...

but please do NOT learn by example found on the net…too many atrocities written by beginner student giving hint to even more newbie student while doing homework…
(I worked 9 years as a professional coder fixing those kind of stuff….please….STOP ! ROM code was the pinnacle of student code….)
09 Mar, 2011, Oten wrote in the 39th comment:
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The internet is a place to start, not necessarily to learn all of the basics, but at the very least to figure out which books are worth the money, and to some extent, some of the open source code is not terrible, even if I'm only learning what NOT to do. I've picked up a lot of books that are complete BS, not worth the money, and filled with information that is irrelevant to what I want to do (such as, who wrote the standard, what year it was established, and so on). I am open to suggestions though, as far as books go, any recommendations?
09 Mar, 2011, Cratylus wrote in the 40th comment:
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20.0/86