13 Sep, 2013, arholly wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
Hi:
So, I've started dorking around again at my code and started thinking about stats. I was thinking what is the purpose, how many is too many, how many is not enough, etc. If you look at many MMO's, they have just 3 or 4 stats (STR/INT/MANA or something similar) and then you have other games (roguelikes) where you may have 10 or 11 stats (STR, Learning, Mana, Perception, Appearance, etc.)

One thing about stats is you need to make them relevant. You cannot have a stat and not have it do anything. Creating an appearance stat and then having it have no mechanics behind makes it rather useless.

What are people's thoughts on stats?
13 Sep, 2013, Nathan wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Personally I'm in favor of doing it D&D style (STR/DEX/CON/INT/CHA/WIS). It seems pretty well thought out and generally handles a lot of potential uses. Less might be ok, but since they are the primary character attributes it's critical that they describe enough of the basic character to get a sense for the strengths and weakness of the character.

Ultimately, I think it depends on the mechanics of the game and whether the needs of the mechanic can be boiled down to a small number of stats or not. It's worth asking how Intelligence is different from, say, Perception and if that distinction matters. In a way skills are secondary stats of a kind that are derived from the base stats and supplemented by skill. I.e to be good with something like "Technology" you need to be intelligent and have experience with it. If you want to talk about something like Fallout, the "Big Guns" skills is kind of pointless to have skill points in if you don't have enough strength to lift the weapon. Although that particular example might allow some interesting emergent play if the game code can handle it, like firing the gun from a mobile mount or using it sitting down. That is, you can't lift it, but you are still good at shooting with it so to speak. You know where the firing buttons are and so on. Of course, your aim won't be good/versatile/accurate.

If you have an Appearance stat, then it kind of needs to differentiate itself a little unless it's a charisma replacement. Not all stats need be inherent I suppose. Your appearance could depend on whether your character took a bath recently and what kind of clothes' they're wearing and so on, if the game supports it. In the context of a game set in a medieval period, you would conceptually be treated very differently if you are dressed well (like a noble) or poorly (like a commoner) even so far as how the npcs treat you and the prices in shops, how willing npcs are to ask you for help/offer quests etc.
13 Sep, 2013, Idealiad wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
I think one important thing to remember with stats is that, unlike in tabletop games, the front player-facing stats don't necessarily need to be allthe stats.

For example, 'strength' could actually be:

* Limit strength – your max strength. What we normally think of as 'strength'.
* Explosive strength – imagine a sprinter starting a race. Also commonly called power.
* Reactive strength – how quickly your muscular system reacts to a stimulus.

When the player looks at their stats they might just see 'strength' as an aggregate score, but with a different command they could see the sub-stats. Of course you also could spin some of this off into separate stats – endurance, reaction, etcetera. In any case with a computer to do the work, you can have a more complex model. For certain games that might not meet your goals but for others it can work great IMO.
13 Sep, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
arholly said:
Hi:
So, I've started dorking around again at my code and started thinking about stats. I was thinking what is the purpose, how many is too many, how many is not enough, etc. If you look at many MMO's, they have just 3 or 4 stats (STR/INT/MANA or something similar) and then you have other games (roguelikes) where you may have 10 or 11 stats (STR, Learning, Mana, Perception, Appearance, etc.)

One thing about stats is you need to make them relevant. You cannot have a stat and not have it do anything. Creating an appearance stat and then having it have no mechanics behind makes it rather useless.

What are people's thoughts on stats?


I think the answer to "how many is too many" depends entirely on your target audience. There is no right or wrong answer.

If you're looking to create depth, character stats strike me as one of the easiest things to add (provided that your stat / affect system is sensibly designed).

Idealiad's point is also interesting because it emphasizes that using presentation you can tier the stat system to cater to different types of players. It has to be done well, though, otherwise one risks both mystifying casual players and disappointing the geeky ones.
13 Sep, 2013, Nich wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
I agree, I don't think that the specific stats chosen, or the number, matters that much. Rather, the depth comes from all of the systems linked in to the stats. You touched on this in the OP. A stat is pointless unless it does something.

I feel like it's pretty trivial to avoid having too few stats, so I would focus efforts on not having too many unless each one is required. Often two stats can be rolled together fairly easily.

I disagree that more stats = more depth. More stats can make a system more complex, but you still need the underlying systems to provide the depth. And you can maintain the same depth by merging stats, but leaving the systems untouched.
14 Sep, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
It's also not necessary to display every stat in detail.

Consider… you might have stats like:

STRength, HEAlth, DEXterity, AGIlity, INTelligence, WILlpower, PERception, MEMory, BELief, LUCk, APPearance, and FORcefulness.

Each stat is specific and a fairly narrow focus, but there's no need for a beginning or even intermediate character to see all of them.

Perhaps a mid-level character, or a mid-tier class, might instead see:

POWer, SPeeD, BRaiN, LeaRNing, GODliness, and PeRSonality.

Each mid-level stat is the average of the two more detailed stats that compose it…. further, a low-level character or class might just show:

PHYsical, MENtal, SPiRitual.

Being averages of two of the mid-level stats.

I'm a big fan of the idea that as you play and evolve your character, you get to know them better, and thus you get to see more detail about them, and have a finer level of control over how they grow. When you enter the game as a Level 1 "Adventurer", what do you really know about anything?
14 Sep, 2013, Runter wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
There's not going to be a right or wrong answer here. Many people find different things mundane or exciting.

I'll describe what I'm working on for my game:

I have a very high granularity for my stats and what they effect. Imagine wearing a single item in my game with one stat increase: "increases fireball spell by 2 points"

If you viewed your characters stats what you may be interested to find out is that you have, just from that one item:


Fireball: 2
Intelligence: 2

This is a basic example, but the fireball spell gives both 2 points in fireball and 2 points of intelligence.

The description of fireball might explain more:

"each point of fireball:
less mana cost for fireball spells [1 mana * x]
1 point of intelligence"

and

"each point of intelligence:
1% more spell damage dealt with all spells"

I particularly like this because diversity is high with tons of options for customizing your build as well as some more flexibility in what items you can be content with, but intersection between all players still remains high. This is a simple example, but I may make it more complex, like fireball giving fire affinity as well, which may give some benefits against fire and across fire discipline.
14 Sep, 2013, Nathan wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
That intelligence business doesn't make a whole lot of sense, why should a fireball spell give you intelligence? It would make more sense that 'learning' fireball would increase your skill with fire spells and improve that kind of spell damage, not universally for all spells. What you are suggesting seems to be some kind of bonus to your skill with magic as a result of mastering a particular spell (hence the reduction of the mana cost).
15 Sep, 2013, Runter wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
Nathan said:
That intelligence business doesn't make a whole lot of sense, why should a fireball spell give you intelligence? It would make more sense that 'learning' fireball would increase your skill with fire spells and improve that kind of spell damage, not universally for all spells. What you are suggesting seems to be some kind of bonus to your skill with magic as a result of mastering a particular spell (hence the reduction of the mana cost).


First of all, I'm not here to argue about what makes sense in a game. It doesn't make a lot of sense for items to give stat in the first place, only armor value and charisma, but putting that aside–)
There's loads of ways to represent the system that might make more sense to you (even though as I just said I think making sense in this context is irrelevant), but it could also be written a longer way on the item, but for more complex bonuses it gets too wordy:

"This item increases all spell damage by 1% and decreases the cost of fireball spell by [1 mana * x]"
"This item increases all spell damage by 1% and decreases the cooldown of heal spell by [0.05 second * x]"
"This item increases all melee damage by 5% and increases the chance to silence with throat punch by [%1 * x]"

or if you like:

"Increases fireball by 1. Increases intelligence by 1."

Then players can just make the leap that all magic items have intelligence on them. But once they do it becomes redundant information, and for that matter, it isn't so easy to make that leap without being explicitly told.

What I am doing is pretty simple, even if that "business" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to you, and it has a careful intent of creating a high intersection between all magic wielding characters. (if you have 100 points in fireball, or a 100 points in magic missile, you still have +100% bonus damage to *all* spells.)

The methodology is that all stats have companion stats. With companion stats being the important intersection stat. An item with +10 fireball also always has +10 intelligence. Or an item with +10 backstab always comes with +10 dexterity.

Most MMOs already use this mechanic where intersections are high across classes: world of warcraft does it with +any att stat and +HP stat.
18 Sep, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
I went for 8 stats, as follows:

  • Brawn: Physical strength and power. Each point gives +2 Damage, +1 Power, +1 Attack, +4 Health and +1 thrown range. It also determines your maximum encumbrance.

  • Grace: Physical grace and agility. Each point gives +4 Attack, +3 Defence, +1/3 Speed and +3 Ascendancy.

  • Mettle: Physical toughness. Each point gives +2 Resistance, +1 Defence, +3 Protection, +1 Mana and +6 Health.

  • Size: Physical size. Each point gives +1 Damage, +1 Resistance, +2 Attack, +2 Defence and +8 Health.

  • Wits: Mental reaction speed. Each point gives +4 Defence, +2/3 Speed, +1 Protection, +1 Ascendancy and +1 Power.

  • Tenacity: Mental aggression. Each point gives +4 Ascendancy, +3 Attack, +1 Power, +1 Damage and +1 Mana.

  • Discipline: Mental resilience. Each point gives +4 Protection, +2 Resistance, +2 Health, +1 Damage and +1 Mana.

  • Aura: Innate magical prowess. Each point gives +2 Power, +2 Ascendancy, +2 Protection, +3 Mana and +1 spell range.


  • The names were picked to ensure that each started with a different letter, so that they could be used for one-letter abbreviations. There's no "intelligence" stat, and appearance is a separate thing that players can just choose depending on their preferences. Size is purely physical and aura is purely magical, but they can't be raised directly during play, and all the other stats have some crossover between physical and magical bonuses.

    As well as providing direct bonuses, the stats also unlock and enhance talents, for example:

    ——————————[ BERSERKER RAGE ]——————————-
    Talent category : Combat Specialty
    Talent availability : You don't fulfill the requirements for this talent
    Method of purchase : During gameplay or character creation
    Personality traits : None
    ——————————————————————————-
    Required base stats : Brawn 8+, Mettle 8+
    Banned talents : Serenity and Blood Potency
    ——————————————————————————-
    This talent allows you to enter a berserk rage, which lasts a number of seconds
    equal to three times your base Mettle. This grants you a bonus to Speed equal
    to your base Tenacity, and a bonus to Attack, Defence and Damage equal to your
    naked Brawn. Note that 'naked' includes only base, class and trained stats.

    Furthermore, while in a rage you don't suffer pain penalties (see 'help pain').

    Once your rage has ended, you will suffer -5 Speed and -10 Attack, Defence and
    Damage. This exhaustion penalty will last for 30 seconds.

    To activate this talent, type 'rage'.
    ——————————————————————————-

    ——————————–[ FIEND SPAWN ]——————————–
    Talent category : Lesser Calling
    Talent availability : You don't fulfill the requirements for this talent
    Method of purchase : During gameplay or character creation
    Personality traits : Lesser Calling
    ——————————————————————————-
    Required class type : Demon (as class or trait)
    Required base stats : Brawn 6+, Tenacity 6+
    Banned traits : Any other Lesser Calling
    ——————————————————————————-
    You are the spawn of a powerful Fiend, and this dark heritage has imbued your
    talons with deadly venom. Whenever you inflict a critical hit with a natural
    claw attack, you will automatically inflict an additional poison attack.

    If you also have the Tainted Soul talent, then your talons receive +1 poison
    bypass for each point of Tenacity you have. If your Tenacity exceeds 10, then
    only every fifth point beyond that counts (so a Tenacity of 15 would give your
    talons +11 poison bypass).

    If you are a full demon, your talons will gain +1 poison bypass for each rank
    you have in each of Tainted Talons and Tainted Flesh. This will also stack
    with the bonus from Tainted Soul, if you have that as well. In addition, when
    using Demon Form your bite attack gains a 5% chance per rank of injecting your
    opponent with venom on a critical hit (see 'help burst'). If you also have a
    mouth warp which gives a burst attack, that burst becomes dual poison damage.
    ——————————————————————————-
    21 Sep, 2013, Famine wrote in the 11th comment:
    Votes: 0
    First of all, many games with a lot of stats on items are designed that way because the game is ideally centered around items. World of Warcraft for one is largely item-centric in meaning the game is centered around items mostly. Therefore, having a more robust and thorough item system in such a game is a must. It's what makes World of Warcraft popular as well a large number of other games.

    Secondly, I think you need to decide if your game is going to be centered around items or not before you really decide. If not, then a pretty basic straightforward statistic system is always the way to go and makes it easier to balance. If yes, then more emphasis on your item statistics is likely a better option to offer more flavorable items that people are going to spend countless hours grinding for much like they do in games like World of Warcraft.

    Lastly, the whole logic of some stats is silly. But the point is to be silly too. Using WoW in reference here (which I hate referencing), it's all about the illogical crazy items. That's ideally what helps drive the game, what helps boost all the crazy classes to being stupid broken at various times and what keeps people hooked. Some players–which in my opinion is a great deal of the mass market–love to max their characters out and squeeze as much juice from their items, especially in games like EVE Online where every fraction of a point matters. Going that direction is easy to do, fun to make and very appealing to a load of players who simply just want to get amazing items, build broken ass characters and win, not lose. :biggrin:
    0.0/11