<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars --> <!--X-From-R13: "Dncu Ybfgre" <exbfgreNnhfgva.ee.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:49:10 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: NDBBLCGJMLFJLCDOFPLMIEAKCIAA.rkoster#austin,rr.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 3.0.3.32.20000417090427.007135e0#mail,swbell.net --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:rkoster#austin,rr.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00422.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00408.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00360.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00437.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00412">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00412">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00412">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Raph Koster" <<A HREF="mailto:rkoster#austin,rr.com">rkoster#austin,rr.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:37:23 -0500</LI> <LI><em>Importance</em>: Normal</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> > -----Original Message----- > From: mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu [<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu]On">mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu]On</A> Behalf Of > Jeff Freeman > Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 9:04 AM > To: mud-dev#kanga,nu > Subject: RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars > > > Raph wrote: > >- why do you want freedom to do things that are BAD admin or business > >practice? (even considering that "freedom" and so on are total mirages in > >this whole situation...) > > Why, because what 99% of the players think is a BAD admin > decision, I might think is a good one. If 99% of the players think it's a bad one strongly enough, it's arguably a bad decision regardless of what you think. ;) Certainly you felt that way often enough about UO! *grin* Seriously, though--adminning is often a game of compromises. Sometimes you make decisions that go against what you believe to be right in part because you want to retain an audience, keep your players happy, etc. This seems to happen even on those muds that don't really care about audience size, etc--stuff sometimes happens or decisions get made to just to keep the players happy. > But, I have to agree with Matt... the whole thing seems to start off on the > wrong foot, pre-supposing that "all men are created equal" which of course, > they aren't. Its as if a Constitution were written and included > the rights and responsibilities of God Almighty. What do you do if God > Almighty shows up, gives it the once over and says, "Er... No."? Who knows? Who cares? A lot of the commentary on this hypothetical document centers around a couple of points: - a bunch of people don't believe in rights. Many question who grants them, whether they are derived from the community or from the admin or from a Creator or whatever. I submit that this is a pointless debate: in terms of muds, the admin grants them or denies them, regardless of whether they previously exist because of a particular philosophical bent. The issue has to be whether the admins SHOULD grant these rights. - admins, as a whole, don't want to think players have any rights whatsoever. Given that this is a group of almost exclusively admins talking here, perhaps this is not surprising. Are there any people who are just players out there who'd like to give their take on this issue? :) - the reasons offered for not granting them seem to boil down to: - this is a game, there's a bunch of oddities that mess with rights in a game. - this is my mud to run as I see fit. Caveat emptor, players. - this restricts me too much in adminning the mud; I usually grant them though. 1) I suspect is distraction from the actual issue. 2) and 3) are more interesting. We keep discussing 2) from only one perspective: presupposing that it is indeed the creator's mud and that it is their right to do anything they want unless they choose to surrender power and authority voluntarily. Can we attack it from the other angle (unelss it's too alien to everyone's thinking)? By what logic a mud admin assume that the act of setting up or running a mud gives them control over what occurs within it? Again, as a thought experiment. :) As far as 3), it seems to be a case of "I want an escape hatch." Can we build hypothetical situations where said escape hatch would even be needed, beyond the ones already built into the document? -Raph _______________________________________________ MUD-Dev mailing list MUD-Dev#kanga,nu <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00437" HREF="msg00437.html">Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Travis Casey <efindel#io,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00360" HREF="msg00360.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Jeff Freeman <skeptack#antisocial,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00422.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00408.html">[MUD-Dev] Circular Alignment [was: Alignment]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00360.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00437.html">Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00412"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00412"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00305" HREF="msg00305.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Christopher Allen <a href="mailto:ChristopherA#skotos,net">ChristopherA#skotos,net</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 00:28 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00325" HREF="msg00325.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:the_logos#achaea,com">the_logos#achaea,com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 04:52 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00338" HREF="msg00338.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster#austin,rr.com">rkoster#austin,rr.com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 06:40 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00360" HREF="msg00360.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Jeff Freeman <a href="mailto:skeptack#antisocial,com">skeptack#antisocial,com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 16:22 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00412" HREF="msg00412.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster#austin,rr.com">rkoster#austin,rr.com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 19:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00437" HREF="msg00437.html">Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 00:02 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00318" HREF="msg00318.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Jon Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 04:52 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00359" HREF="msg00359.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 16:22 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00381" HREF="msg00381.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>, Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <a href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com">Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 20:17 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>