<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long) -->
<!--X-From-R13: "Quevfgbcure Oyyra" <QuevfgbcureONfxbgbf.arg> -->
<!--X-Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:46:10 -0700 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: 001201bfac93$86e52f40$03000004@asmrb.org -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Reference: 200004202029.QAA01759@hutch.East.Sun.COM -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:ChristopherA@skotos.net">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00535.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00540.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00492.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00544.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00532">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00532">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00532">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Christopher Allen" <<A HREF="mailto:ChristopherA#skotos,net">ChristopherA#skotos,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:46:49 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
"Paul Schwanz" <Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com> wrote on Thursday, April 20, 2000
1:28 PM:
> I've only played around in my head with this system I'm about to share, so
in
> the real world, there could be much that would go wrong.
>
> Most of the simple binary alignment systems leave me wanting more in the
way of
> interesting moral decisions. I thought that the system that Christopher
Allen
> posted from DartMUD was fascinating and will look into it in more depth in
the
> next week, but it is the first I've seen that even attempts to explore
some
> deeper moral issues.
(some text deleted)
> To bring this concept down to something that might be programmable, I have
> identified four basic things that are valued in an MMORPG. They are
health,
> wealth, information, and power. (The issue of time has been addressed
> elsewhere.) Significant actions in the game can be seen as either giving
or
> taking in one of these areas. Some actions give and take to a greater
degree.
> This concept could be charted to look like this:
>
> ................GIVING(+).................TAKING(-)
>
> (H)EALTH........Nurturing(H+).............Conquest(H-)
> (W)EALTH........Generosity(W+)............Greed(W-)
> (I)NFORMATION...Teaching(I+)..............Secrecy(I-)
> (P)OWER.........Loyalty(P+)...............Betrayal(P-)
>
> If a character values life or nurturing, then he is health-giving(H+). If
he
> values subversion or betrayal, then he is power-taking(P-). At character
> creation, the player is presented with questions regarding the values that
his
> character will posses. Does he prefer to heal and grow things or to
overpower
> and subjegate? He will also be asked questions to find out what priority
he
> would give to each of the values he holds. The character will end up with
a
> values profile that might look like this:
>
> Bubba: W-4, H+3, P+2, I-1
>
> This character places the highest value on gaining wealth. Next, he
values
> nurturing and healing living things. To a lesser extent, he is loyal.
Finally,
> in most cases he is more likely to hoard secret knowledge over teaching
wisdom.
> Perhaps someone with these values would make a good merchant. It probably
would
> not be wise for Bubba to attempt to make military endeavors the focus of
his
> life.
>
> Once we give every character a values profile, the next step is to give
each
> significant action in the game an appropriate profile as well. Knocking
another
> character unconscious and taking a small amount of gold from them might
result
> in a values profile of H-1, W-1. Killing someone from your own town and
> removing from their body a priceless gem might result in H-5, W-4, P-3.
To find
> out how well an action lines up with a characters stated value, you could
simply
> multiply the value categories of the person and the action and sum the
results.
> If Bubba the merchant, with the values given in the example, were to kill
> someone from his own town and remove from their body a priceless gem, the
math
> would look like this:
>
> Character....Action..........
> Profile......Profile...Result
>
> W-4.....*....W-4.......+16
> H+3.....*....H-5.......-15
> P+2.....*....P-3.......-06
> ...............Total = -05
>
> (NOTE: -I- is irrelevant to this particular action.)
>
> In general, this action goes against what the merchant character values,
so he
> will face some moral consequences. The -05 result can be used to
determine the
> extent of those consequences. At the most simple level, whatever skill or
> experience is tied to the actions can be multiplied by the -05 so that
Bubba the
> merchant will actually _lose_ skill and experience as a result of his
acitons.
> (Morally speaking, he is troubled by his act and will not function as
well,
> especially in the skill areas that are associated with his action.)
We have been talking some at Skotos about something very similar to this,
but not for purposes of "alignment", but instead, for reactions of NPCs to p
layers.
Pendragon
---------
The basic idea we credit from the Pendragon system by Chaosium, which is
that every NPC has a number of personality modifiers:
Some adverbs have emotional content, such as "provocatively" the we need to
say where it falls. I think the Pendragon system may be useful here.
Chaste Lustful
Energetic Lazy
Forgiving Vengeful
Generous Selfish
Honest Deceitful
Just Arbitrary
Merciful Cruel
Modest Proud
Pious Wordly
Prudent Reckless
Temperate Indulgent
Trusting Suspicious
Valorous Cowardly
In Pendragon, each of these pairs have to total 20. So if Chaste was 15,
then Lustful would be 5. GMs in that paper game could use these when they
didn't know what an NPC would do, and wanted to roll randomly to see the
result.
Continuum Alpha
---------------
Another system I've seen recently online, from a paper rpg called Continum
Alpha.
Brave/Cowardly: How likely the character is to face personal danger or flee
from it.
Cautious/Impulsive: Whether the character is likely to plan his actions
carefully, or simply jump in, caution to the wind, with both guns blazing.
Energetic/Indolent: Whether the character is a goal achiever who channels
his energy into accomplishing some task or another, or is a rather lazy
procrastinator who does not seem to have the desire or energy to accomplish
anything.
Extrovert/Introvert: Whether the character is somewhat withdrawn from social
interaction or enjoys interacting with other people.
Forgiving/Vengeful: How likely the character is to forgive actions against
him or to hold a grudge against the offenders.
Gentle/Cruel: Whether the character is sensitive to the feelings, physical
and emotional, of other beings, or ignores or purposely acts to violate
those feelings.
Honest/Deceitful: How likely the character is to act truthfully as opposed
to how likely the character is to attempt to deceive others.
Modest/Proud: Whether the character is self-deprecating or boastful about
his accomplishments.
Optimist/Pessimist: Whether the character is likely to look for the positive
or negative aspects of any situation.
Trusting/Suspicious: How likely the character is to trust or suspect the
motives of other people.
Skotos
------
What we have proposed doing with our system is that when players interact
with an NPC, the NPC creates a table of what it thinks the player is like.
As our system has tagged adverbs and verbs, it knows that bowing is a sign
of respect, but sarcastically bowing is not. If you flirt with the Queen,
and she on the Chaste/Lustful scale is Lustful, she will be more favorable
to you. Meanwhile, the King may feel differently.
Theoretically NPCs can share profiles with each other, to build a
"reputation" of the player, so even if you meet the Chancellor for the first
time, he has a chance of having heard from either the King or Queen about
you and will profile accordingly.
We had not really thought of it, but each player could also have a profile
that is only knowable by "gods" of the world, that is the sum of all their
actions.
We have not decided which are the appropriate pairs -- I like things about
some of them, but many I'm not sure how the system can detect a number of
them even with our tagged verb/adverb capability. For now we'll probably
pick a few pairs that work, and add more as we figure them out.
This system has not been implemented, and probably will not even be
implemented in version 1 of system, but it shows where our thinking is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. Christopher Allen Skotos Tech Inc. ..
.. 1512 Walnut St., Berkeley, CA 94709-1513 ..
.. <<A HREF="http://www.Skotos.net">http://www.Skotos.net</A>> o510/649-4030 f510/649-4034 ..
_______________________________________________
MUD-Dev mailing list
MUD-Dev#kanga,nu
<A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A>
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>:
<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00544" HREF="msg00544.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Spin <spin@fastlink.com.au></li></ul>
</UL></LI></UL>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>:
<UL>
<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00492" HREF="msg00492.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com></LI></UL></LI>
</UL></LI></UL>
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00535.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The scalability of paying for in-game things</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00540.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO"</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00492.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00544.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00532"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00532"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00489" HREF="msg00489.html">[MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></strong>,
Fred Clift <a href="mailto:fred@veriohosting.com">fred@veriohosting.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 22:08 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00497" HREF="msg00497.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@cp.net">claw@cp.net</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 23:56 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00504" HREF="msg00504.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></strong>,
John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:jb@pulsepoll.com">jb@pulsepoll.com</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 04:13 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00492" HREF="msg00492.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></strong>,
Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <a href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com">Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 22:07 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00532" HREF="msg00532.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></strong>,
Christopher Allen <a href="mailto:ChristopherA@skotos.net">ChristopherA@skotos.net</a>, Sun 23 Apr 2000, 21:46 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00544" HREF="msg00544.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment</A></strong>,
Spin <a href="mailto:spin@fastlink.com.au">spin@fastlink.com.au</a>, Mon 24 Apr 2000, 18:47 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00543" HREF="msg00543.html">Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel@io.com">efindel@io.com</a>, Mon 24 Apr 2000, 02:15 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00550" HREF="msg00550.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></strong>,
Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <a href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com">Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com</a>, Mon 24 Apr 2000, 18:47 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00551" HREF="msg00551.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] Alignment (very long)</A></strong>,
Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <a href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com">Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com</a>, Mon 24 Apr 2000, 18:47 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>