<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking --> <!--X-From-R13: "Dlna Bnynpvb" <ecnynpvbNirenag.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:34:10 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 120f01bfa99c$024c2440$ba9713ce@verant.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: NDBBLCGJMLFJLCDOFPLMKEBKCIAA.rkoster@austin.rr.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00445.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00447.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00493.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00453.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00446">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00446">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00446">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Ryan Palacio" <<A HREF="mailto:rpalacio#verant,com">rpalacio#verant,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:10:10 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> Raph Koster wrote: > Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, a definition: > > TWINKING: the act of assisting a lower level player to advance in the game > at a much faster rate than they would be able to achieve on their own, via > the giving of experience (often via XP split systems inherent in grouping > systems), items, goods, or money. > > This is the term as it is used in the context of EverQuest and many muds, > but it is not the same as the classic definition used on social muds, > wherein a TWINK was merely a jerk or perhaps a GoP player. > > There are several decision points at which a player makes a decision whether > to stick with a mud. The very first is what I'd call the "scratch 'n' > sniff." > [snip...] > > There's only so much you can do to improve the scratch n sniff. It's very > audience dependent. > [snip...]. > > The second inflection point is after they start playing. Everyone has horror > stories about their first play session on a mud. The most frequent words > tend to be "confusing" "directionless" "boring" "monotonous" etc. It has > been empirically shown that meeting a friend in the first five minutes > results in a MUCH higher chance of getting past this inflection point. In > fact, I bet you have had this experience with a friend or colleague (I know > *I* have): > [snip...] Somehow, I get the distinct feeling that the "meeting a friend" does not NEED to constitute "twinking", as per the definition above. The example Raph provided of "institutionalized twinking" in AC extends from a "heirarchical social structure". Therefore, is it merely the incentive for experienced players to assist newbies, take them under their wing, and keep them playing, or is it the newbies receipt of material goods that get the newbies over "the hump"? In the paragraph above, the use of the words "confusing", "directionless", "boring", "monotonous" suggests to me a disorientation and/or lack of understanding of the environment. In turn, this suggests an "ill-equipped" player, not an "ill-equipped" character. Following that logic, it would appear that the learning curve to the environment and establishment of a firm footing in the in-game world (be it socially or with regards to the UI) is the issue. I guess I still fail to see that inter-level interaction necessitates the transfer of goods, coin, or xp. Knowledge is the ultimate resource in any game, and the tranfer of this is what should be encouraged. Let us now side-step to an issue that I believe weighs heavily upon the "twinking" thread: Item Importance/Value. In EQ, the players (and economy) are highly item dependant. Without them, the character is at a distinct disadvantage. With them, characters can achieve significantly more. The loss of a single item can represent a significant blow to the character's performance. Without any restrictions on the transfer of items, the balance of power can be significantly swayed. It is therefore in the interests of EQ developers to minimize high level items reaching low level hands. I will not embark on explaining the methodology for means of restriction (utilized in EQ or otherwise), as that is dependent on the results of this thread. On the other hand, my limited experiences in UO (correct me if I am wrong Raph), have shown me that items are of significantly less importance. The ability to lose everything on your corpse prevents attachment to any item. The potential for item breakage/decay coupled with the greater importance of skill(s), effectively minimizes the symptoms of twinking. I believe these represent two relative extremes, and whereever your own game/design fall between these two will determine the ramifications and magnitude of potential symptoms. On one hand, you have to minimize symptoms through various forms of restriction to curb high-to-low level item trading. On the other, you have a system where items, in general, lack permanence, significant character impact, and significant RL value. (eBay typically sells EQ items, and some accounts, whereas the UO selection primarily consists of accounts, coin, and housing) > Damion Schubert once said to me, "I want a newbie to see the coolest thing > the game has to offer in the first session. Imagine if they saw a dragon and > helped kill it on the first day." (Very rough paraphrase here). He's dead > right. That first play session, before they make that decision to > emotionally invest in the game, needs to be awesome. > > Above all, it cannot be humiliating (cf Jonathan Baron's "Glory and Shame"). > Killing rats is humiliating. Let's not put the cart before the horse here. No doubt the first impression must be significant and intrigue. However, in EQ, many landmark rewards (such as viewing - much less killing - a dragon) are representative of lots of invested time and effort. It's a "pay before you pump" system, but not to the exclusion of occassionally providing new and intriguing things to keep you "on track". As for the humiliating part, it's all a matter of perception of power. Starting by killing goblin whelps, or drudges, or skeletons, or some creature perceived as potentially capable of fighting back provides an initial level of power greater than that garnered by killing rats, bunnies, etc. At the same time, some designs feel that the acquisition of skill and power relative to a lesser state increases the sense of accomplishment. Under this system, starting out hitting a practice dummy, killing bunnies/rats, or chasing a chicken around a yard (ala Rocky I), is just a matter of interactivity. Rats and bunnies do fight back, no matter how ineffectually, providing an understand of combat in a minimum risk environment. Sure you aren't gifted instant "hero" status. But similarly, if you get through the initial stages/inflections, you probably see more improvement relative to "ground zero" than if you had been started a rung or two higher. Power balance can be exactly identical in both instances - its just player perception of the opponent. Not everyone requires a booster seat to sit at the dinner table the first time, some just sit and deal with being a little lower. Its not a matter that the food tastes any different when viewed from the side or above, just how it is presented. > What more welcoming thing is there than to get outfitted like a hero, handed > thousands of gold pieces, and invited along to kill a [insert critter you > couldn't possibly tackle solo]? [snip...] Doing it myself and having a complete self-satisfaction that I was able to achieve it alone as compared to the "twinks" that needed friends/help to do it. Call me masochistic. But I personally enjoy the trials and tribulations each level or trial has to offer. And in the end, I know that everything I accomplished or acquired was through my own hardships and conquerings thereof. I have a pride in myself (RL) as well as my character. > So twinking, to a point, actually extends player longevity. Now, if your > game system is such that someone being twinked basically runs through all of > your game data in a far shorter timespan, then leaves, then yes, you have a > problem. But that means that the problem lies with your game system, and not > with the very natural tendency of humans to assist friends who are less > fortunate. I disagree with this overall. Let me turn this around a little bit. "Does average Joe Gamer consistantly 'complete', 'finish', or 'win' the majority of single-player titles he/she owns if the difficulty level exceeds his/her _initial_ skill level?" In other words, does average Joe Gamer rise to the occassion and improve him/her-self as necessary? Or does Joe Gamer quit, pack up their toys and go home? If to the former one answers "yes", twinking will not extend longevity since Joe Gamer will not quit until they have overcome the impediment to their progress. If to the latter one answers "yes", you cannot help Joe Gamer unless you provide them a dedicated baby-sitter. The game will ultimately become "too hard" for them and they will leave unless cared for constantly. And since noone likes a leech, Joe Gamer will not have friends very long and will decide to quit. > ...get them to have friends, within two hours of logging on > for the first time This necessitates... > a system whereby elder players are incentivized to help newbies "Help" _should_ primarily involve knowledge and social association. > Mathematically, I'm pretty sure that the number of people you get past that > inflection point leads to more revenue/lifespan than the loss that results > from the shortened lifespan of a twinked character--especially if the maxxed > out twinked character then chooses to do it over again "on their own" for > the challenge of it. That would actually require that people make the game effectively more difficult for themselves. Their relative "norm" is being twinked. That is all they know. They know that it sucked so much to NOT be twinked that they required intervention by others. This gets back to the "step up to the challenge or go home" question. Either I endeavour the first time around, or it was too hard. If I can't complete Quake III on medium, I am not about to try and complete it on hard or impossible difficulty. I also don't get my friend to come over and complete a specific level for me. That would be pointless as I would be effectively turning the game over to my friend permanently (assuming progressional increase in difficulty). I believe the person that undertakes that kind of hardship (recreating a character to "do it over again 'on their own'") to be a rare exception and a completely negligible percentage for purposes of this discussion. I would even venture to tangentialize momentarily and state that I believe the largest percentage of twinking in EQ occurs with "secondary" (or later) characters. The purpose is to make it "easier", and therefore "faster", and/or attempt to skip content the second time around. I guess this in itself could hold a message. I don't necessarily disagree with the overall argument, as I see many of your points as valid in a general context. I do not feel that twinking as necessarily bad, but that the stance on twinking taken by a development team is completely situational and based on the individual project's game design and "vision" philosophy. Sorry for the rambling... ~Ryan Palacio _______________________________________________ MUD-Dev mailing list MUD-Dev#kanga,nu <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00466" HREF="msg00466.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Raph Koster" <rkoster@austin.rr.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00457" HREF="msg00457.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "F. Randall Farmer" <randy@communities.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">Re PRIVATE [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Kristen L. Koster" <koster@eden.com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00431" HREF="msg00431.html">[MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Raph Koster" <rkoster@austin.rr.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00445.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00447.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00493.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00453.html">Re PRIVATE [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00446"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00446"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00436" HREF="msg00436.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, adam <a href="mailto:adam@treyarch.com">adam@treyarch.com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 23:12 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00449" HREF="msg00449.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, Geoffrey Z. <a href="mailto:gzatkin@verant.com">gzatkin@verant.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 01:56 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00454" HREF="msg00454.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster@austin.rr.com">rkoster@austin.rr.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 02:55 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00493" HREF="msg00493.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, adam <a href="mailto:adam@treyarch.com">adam@treyarch.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 23:43 GMT </LI> </LI> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00446" HREF="msg00446.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 01:34 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">Re PRIVATE [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, Kristen L. Koster <a href="mailto:koster@eden.com">koster@eden.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 02:33 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00457" HREF="msg00457.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, F. Randall Farmer <a href="mailto:randy@communities.com">randy@communities.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 03:42 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00465" HREF="msg00465.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster@austin.rr.com">rkoster@austin.rr.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00469" HREF="msg00469.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>, Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT </LI> </LI> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>