<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance --> <!--X-From-R13: pbqreNvoz.arg --> <!--X-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:11:51 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199710231711.RAA119518#out1,ibm.net --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: c=US%a=_%p=EA%l=MOLACH-971021144516Z-568#molach,origin.ea.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:coder#ibm,net"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00143.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00145.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00136.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00115.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00144">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00144">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00144">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 22 Oct 97 22:59:57 -0700</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On 21/10/97 at 09:34 AM, "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com> said: >On Monday, October 20, 1997 4:23 PM, coder#ibm,net wrote: >> I'd also reference Lorry's various polemics and musings on >> Wizardhood and the early MIST days in particular... >Hmm, I'd like to see these musings and polemics. Where might I be able >to find them? Ungh. I just started a new contract at SunSoft which has got me buried under inches of manual reading and no net connection (yet).. I know its one of the URL's under my MUD/Resources folder, but it will take a while to find. I'll get back to you. >>...The recent Gods list has also had some extremely >> RP/social-milleau based discussions on management styles and >> handling of staff on MUSHes. I can provide a full dump of the Gods >> traffic to date if wished and let you sort out from there what you want. >Absolutely. You've got my email address, or if it is large enough, we >can set up an ftp dump someplace... I'll send it out in just a moment. >> The Habitat papers are also very good reading (I posted them here), but >> I'm sure you're familiar with these already. >Yes. IMHO, anyone seriously doing "this" (vague term for all this stuff >we're doing) needs to have read them. Yup, that's one of the reasons I posted them, rather than references to them, here. >> Finally, the very very early days of this least (back in the CC >> days) had fairly extensive debate on the deliniation between >> social/administrative problems and technical solutions. I, in >> particular, drew and still draw that line very hard. If wished >> I can send you a dump of that traffic >> (unsorted, unthreaded, etc, you pick out the gems from the dreck). >Hmm, sure. This will take a little longer. Need to find where I stashed it... > Does that mean you'd prefer not to open the topic on the list > again? Absolutely not. Its definitely a valid topic for the list, and one that has suffered very little examination. I'd love to see a good thread on it. Re: Back Rose >I'd also add that it is a great example of why exactly the people who >are in contact with the players need to be expert manipulators, smooth >talking politicians, and in general, well, the sort of people you put in >contact with the public in any other discipline. True, which is a oft ignored point with hobbiest games. All too often the publicly connected admins are selected on the basis of being bad coders, or not in the clique with the owners. The other problem of course are the soapy sams. >Sometimes ruthlessness is >called for, and sometimes so is manipulation for the greater good (my, >how machiavellian I grow in my old age...). There is great value in putting a head on a pike, no matter whose it is. A little Heinlienian, but it does work and is well proven. >It's also interesting to look at the log from the perspective of later >discussions, such as Bartle's paper, and realize that this was the tip >of a much larger iceberg about which the admins knew absolutely nothing. >And had they known more, it might well have drastically affeted their >perceptions of the problem and thus their solution (or lack thereof). One thing that was apparent to me on reading it was that each participant was attempting to shoehorn the other's play styles and viewpoints of the game into a variation of their own play style and viewpoint, rather than as possibly something differently founded. Thus their ability to assume the other's viewpoints was severely limited in this regard, which made any conflict resolution nigh impossible. The continuopus confusion and surprise registered through out the log shows this well. No side ever really understands the other's position. As the base camps were actually differently founded, this doomed the attempt to reach concensus before it started, In align with this, Bartle's paper would have indicated that there were play styles which had fundamentally different foundations. As you say, if the admins had read/known this, they would have had a chance of at least realising that there was a different basis and that thereby a fundamentally different game was being played (as vs a variation of the "expected" game), even if they didn't understand it. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net ----------(*) Internet: coder#ibm,net ...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00136" HREF="msg00136.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00143.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Reusable plots for quests</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00145.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00136.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00115.html">The Official T$R Book of Adventure Suggestions</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00144"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00144"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00133" HREF="msg00133.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></strong>, Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#online-alchemy,com">mike#online-alchemy,com</a>, Tue 21 Oct 1997, 05:45 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00134" HREF="msg00134.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></strong>, Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#online-alchemy,com">mike#online-alchemy,com</a>, Tue 21 Oct 1997, 06:34 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00145" HREF="msg00145.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Thu 23 Oct 1997, 17:44 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00136" HREF="msg00136.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Tue 21 Oct 1997, 14:47 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00144" HREF="msg00144.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Mud governance</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Thu 23 Oct 1997, 17:11 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00115" HREF="msg00115.html">The Official T$R Book of Adventure Suggestions</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Fri 17 Oct 1997, 16:43 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00100" HREF="msg00100.html">[MUD-Dev] multiple intelligences</A></strong>, Brandon J. Rickman <a href="mailto:ashes#pc4,zennet.com">ashes#pc4,zennet.com</a>, Tue 14 Oct 1997, 07:58 GMT <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00128" HREF="msg00128.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] multiple intelligences</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 19 Oct 1997, 21:10 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00140" HREF="msg00140.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] multiple intelligences</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Wed 22 Oct 1997, 06:14 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>