<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo --> <!--X-From-R13: "Fenivf Qnfrl" <rsvaqryNcbynevf.arg> --> <!--X-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:13:13 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199710052212.SAA13423#polaris,net --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supp</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00049.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00051.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00049.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00000.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00050">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00050">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00050">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Travis Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:12:20 -0400</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: "Travis Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</A>></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> Brandon J. Rickman <ashes#pc4,zennet.com> wrote: >On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, "Travis Casey" <efindel#polaris,net> replied: > >>Are there any muds which don't have a "time based interface" (by which I >>presume you mean a real-time interface, as opposed to a turn-based >>interface). Turn-based seems like it would be impractical for a mud -- if >>one player has to go to the bathroom, should all the other players be put on >>hold until he/she gets back? > >A lot of things seem impractical for muds (like ZenMOO), but some interface >questions can't be solved with the typical assumptions of real-time >mud interaction. Yes, in a turn-based mud you would have to wait for >AFK players, and perhaps this is such a fundamental change that these new >turn-based games fall outside of [the petty world of] mud-dom. Should >we talk about these new play-by-mail-ish mud games? Certainly. :-) Just taking turns eliminates some problems (like most typoes, some advantages for scripters, and the advantage to being a fast typist.) Turn-taking also can allow for differential turn lengths -- that is, the length of a turn in game time doesn't always have to be the same. This makes long-term activities, such as training and travel, more practical in the game. I can't think of any way to utilize the latter aspect (which IMHO is the best part) without moving to a small-group model more like that of paper RPGs. To do otherwise would require either allowing players to become separated in time, which complicates things incredibly; or making everyone do long-term actions at once, which seems too artificial if all the PCs aren't in one group, or making those who are doing long-term actions wait while others take lots of turns, which can be done without a turn-based system. >So the player was unprepared due to stupidity, carelessness, or the >general unpredictability of the universe. That the player made a typo >doesn't change the fact they were unprepared. But to put it a different way, >you would like to design the interface in such a way that the player >would be prevented from making mistakes. Why is is this an interesting >design goal? You're putting words in my mouth. My only point was that using a modal interface penalizes players much more for simple typos than a non-modal interface does -- I've said nothing about preventing players from making mistakes. An interface which unduly punishes the user for simple mistakes is, quite simply, a bad interface. Thus, this is an important part of designing the interface. >And in most games, setting down the sword _has no other consequence within >the game_. But if you were a monster would you rather attack an armed or >an unarmed hero? This has a lot to do with the music skill thread, but >in this case swordplay is considered a more useful activity. Yet while >we are complicating the actions the character must take we keep trying >to simplify the actions of the player. Do we? I wish to simplify the *interface*, not the *actions*. There is a difference between the two. It should be noted as well that the *character* and the *player* are two distinct things... making the *character* do more does not necessarily mean that the *player* must do more. >I think the really valuable conclusion of this >discussion is that character actions need to be >atomically scripted for the benefit of new players, but advanced players >would be able to rewrite the scripts to their personal level >of sophistication. And yes, this means that advanced players would be >more vulnerable to typos, or "interface mistakes". I have no problem with making experienced players more vulnerable to typos -- they should have had time to learn the interface so that they know how to handle them. >>In any case, though, it should be noted that typos are an artifact of the >>interface -- if the player actually *were* his/her character, it would be >>impossible for him/her to try to weld a sword when he/she meant to wield it. > >Is there some kind of perfect one-to-one, artifact-free interface between >my mental self and the physical world? If so, where can I buy one? >If the player actually *were* his/her character, what the heck is this >random skill check stuff? It's God playing dice with the universe. :-) I come from a paper RPG background, and that's what I really want to recreate. In a paper RPG, there are almost never such problems, because the "interface" to the game is a human GM, who is capable of asking for clarification, realizing when a player probably meant something else, and accepting quick restatements ("I'm going to weld my sword. I mean, wield it."). This doesn't eliminate tactical errors (e.g., forgetting to bring your sword at all). If you wish to allow for things like a character's sword being stuck in his/her scabbard, it seems to me that it makes more sense to account for that separately -- after all, the physical ability of the player to type well isn't related to the physical abilities of his/her character. (At least, it isn't on most muds.) >I would like to point out a possible gap between real-time _interaction_ >and real-time _interface_. The "real-time nature of muds" is characteristic >of the interaction, not the interface. The interface is how players interact with the mud, so this seems like a false distinction to me. Or are you talking about the interaction between the characters and their universe, rather than the interaction between the players and the mud? >This reply has been stewing in my dead letter file long enough. I'm >sure I haven't been nearly explicit enough in my opinions. Join the club. :-) I'd like to reiterate that all I'm getting at is that the interface shouldn't make it unnecessarily difficult to "pilot" one's character -- some difficulty is unavoidable, but we should try to reduce it where we can. A modal interface for asking for clarification on commands seems to me to be too likely to cause problems -- especially given the ease with which it should be possible to make in non-modal (and the one in the original example really is non-modal, as the original author has since clarified.) -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com> ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' rec.games.design FAQ: '---''(_/--' `-'\_) <A HREF="http://www.io.com/~efindel/design.html">http://www.io.com/~efindel/design.html</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00051.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] games gender bias (Re: Affecting the world)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00000.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00050"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00050"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] OT: Usability and interface and who the hell is su</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00117" HREF="msg00117.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] OT: Usability and interface and who the hell is su</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 18 Oct 1997, 01:15 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00048" HREF="msg00048.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 20:58 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00106" HREF="msg00106.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Tue 14 Oct 1997, 18:51 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00049" HREF="msg00049.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 21:00 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00050" HREF="msg00050.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 22:13 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00000" HREF="msg00000.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>, Brian Price <a href="mailto:blprice#bedford,net">blprice#bedford,net</a>, Wed 01 Oct 1997, 05:37 GMT <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00004" HREF="msg00004.html">[MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>, Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Wed 01 Oct 1997, 15:01 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00060" HREF="msg00060.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Mon 06 Oct 1997, 22:51 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00046" HREF="msg00046.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 05 Oct 1997, 20:22 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>