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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Derrick Jones <<A HREF="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:00:53 -0500 (EST)</LI>
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<PRE>
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Sauron wrote:
> > I don't know about coding things but it can't be so hard to have a
> realistic
> > way to arrest people. It happens all the time of course? You just need some
> > way for your police to restrain people. Things like shackles and handcuffs?
>
> coding is how you program the game to do whatever you want to do. i
> really think it would be very inefficient to have to have a guard hold
> and restrain a person, apply handcuffs and take them away. my belief is
> that have the guards be set a high lvl (assuming that you are using
> levels), have them fight using the ic combat system (so that you can
> possibly defeat one, but not a whole mob), have some way to restrain the
> mage from escaping during this combat (ie hold person or have them
> "surrounded"), and when they "die", instead of being killed are
> teleported to the dungeon w/ and explanation like "the guards beat you
> until you fall unconscious. you awake alone in a dungeon cell." what
> actually happened can easily be inferred.
I'm personally in favor of incorporating non-lethal/non-weapon combat into
the regular IC game. This will become essential as all weapons will be
confiscated at the main gate to the town in question. That is all weapons
the guards manage to find. It seems odd to me that I have never seen this
done on muds, yet this was common practice in midievial times...(I'm sure
its been done _somewhere_ but I haven't seen it. Anybody know where?)
> > > Mages present an especially problimatic scenario, as
> > > they have the option of teleporting beyond the reach of the law...
> >
> > Why? If the police employs mages they have the same option. Or they can
> > prevent the gate from opening, or from closing behind the mage. There's
> > any number of things you can do to solve this I would think?
>
> but then you're being hypocritical and really endangering the suspension
> of disbelief. it becomes unreal (in the sense that realism is unto the
> game itself) because you've outlawed mages in a city, but here you are
> using other mages to keep them out.
No mages are permitted in the city. Violence is not. The problem occurs
because it becomes very difficult to confiscate a wizards weapons. The
town populace knows that magic can either aid or harm. I don't see a
reason to have the town guard intervene if a spellcaster decides to clear
up the leporsy infecting the town beggar. If the same spellcaster decides
to burn the guy to a pulp, then their intervention is warrented. Note
that magic to a non-innate(those without the innate ability for magic) is
a completely foreign concept and there is absolutely no chance of the
guards(unless they happen to be mages) identifying which spell is about to
be cast (or is in the process of being cast).
>
> > > Players escaping by normal means can be tracked, followed, and hunted
> > > down. The only difficulty there is with the following scenario:
> > > >kill Boffo
> > > >flee west
> > > >quit
> > > connection closed by foriegn host.
> > > The solution, of course, is to demand that my players remained connected
> > > 24-7..maybe take stats away from them for time spent in RL...(cackle).
> >
> > Why not put a criminal on the wanted list if they run off this way. Then
> > they must disguise themselves on return or risk being recognised and ar-
> > rested next time they connect?
>
> this is somewhat feasible, though of course the guards would already
> know that
> Bubba is an outlaw, but you have to find some way to get players to risk
> their lives to capture him. a high reward works sometimes, but not
> always, especially w/ players not interested in money.
I believe the suggestion was to have the guards track down the outlaw
whenever the logged back on, not having players track them down...although
either senario destoys the SOD. The player would then presumably log back
on as another character, scope out the town, then quicky log back on as
the outlaw and use the other characters information to escape, repeating
the log-off,log-on cycle as many times as it takes to elude the pursuers.
I'd like to note the sarcasm in the original statement as well...thought
the '(cackle)' gave that much away.
> > > More realistically, just force _characters_ to remain in-game even while
> > > the players are away...It becomes difficult to balance on a PK mud, but
> > > managible if you allow players to create scripts and defences to use in
> > > place of human input.
> >
> > That's a possibility also even though it would make it impossible for
> > somebody like me to play your game.
>
> why? seriously you either place your character in a "safe room" where
> they cant be attacked (if the game allows such rooms) or you leave your
> connection active (their are numerous programs out there that will
> reconnect for you if you get dumped) and it is not very hard to program
> a simple script that will run when attacked or respond by saying run a
> room, hide, when X enters, attack X, run, etc.
Rofl..that's the whole point of the town being a no_violence area. I
allow 'full' PK (you have to confirm it to prevent typo-kills) and players
need a place where they can feel relatively safe so as to let down their
guard and socialize a bit.
> > > Mages, (or any other character with access to spatial distortion style
> > > magics--i.e. teleport spell), can, instead of quitting in the previous
> > > example:
> > > >flee west
> > > The patrolguard shouts 'I'm gonna get you, Rasputin!'.
> > > >cast 'teleport' home
> > > You stand inside your house.
> > > >enable defence /* turns 'on' house defences */
> > > Your house is now protected.
> > > A portal begins to open.
> > > There is a flash of light as your house defences close the portal.
> > > You hear many footsteps approaching.
> > > >look outside
> > > A patrolguard falls into a pit-trap.
> > > [...many dead patrolguards later...]
> >
> > Of course nothing would prevent the patrol guards to send for a mage or
> > two to disable your magical defenses. If the city allows such defenses
> > in town in the first place. Or the mage would place a magical dome over
> > your house that prevents you from leaving?
>
> again the problem of employing mages being hypocritical.
not really you missed the beginning of the thread. Mages aren't outlawed.
I just don't want to throw in a brute-force solution. That will be
transparent and the players will see the town guard for what it really
is...a group of super-high-level brutes that wouldn't be consisant with
the world dynamics. The obvious questions I'd have to answer would be: if
the guards are the most powerful creatures in the game world, then why are
they guards? How can an average town afford to hire a contigent of
super-powerful beings to protect them? Who guards the guards?
> > > The problem here is twofold. 1.) Magical travel is instanteous and
> > > doesn't leave tracks, so its next-to-impossible to catch a mage with a
> > > head start.
> >
> > This is only true at the moment. Most books which involve magic have it
> > leave some kind of residue on the caster that can be tracked by another
> > mage. And if the player can portal to another player easily then so can
> > the mages of the guard.
>
> see usenet thread.
Okay...Portals are allowed within the town. Using Portals is a long
accepted legitamate means of travel in a high-magic universe. So no
patrol guard would hassle a mage opening a portal. (The mage may open
him/herself to observation by guards and passerby alike, as the magic
needed to open a portal is quite fascinating to a non-innate.) Also, use
of non-violent magic within the town is allowed (magic isn't outlawed
violence is) and the average citizen cannot tell the difference between a
legal and illegal spell (even if they identified the spell pior to
casting, there are many spells that react differently in different
circumstances) until the spell is complete. So a mage who does the
following:
%portal home /* opens a portal to the casters house */
%fireball Bubba
%enter portal
has given any observers the time of execution of the final command to
react to the comment before the mage leaves. I could have a few
'specialists' who can tell a spell before casting is complete tail
suspicious mages through town, but the mage would have to draw attention
to him/herself, and the number of these specialists would be quite small,
as they would demand very high wages from said town.
> > > > The guards have to be able to react quick enough to prevent
> > > the mage from casting, else the mage can get away.
> >
> > This is always true when dealing with a mage. But it is questionable
> > if the magic should be instantaneous. That is how it works now but I
> > guess it would not be that hard to have powerfull or difficult spells
> > take time to be casted. Just make them a succession of lesser spells,
> > as has been suggested before (I believe with casting fireballs).
>
> it would probably be easier to code a delay based on spellcasting stats
> (whatever they may be) vs. the difficulty of the spell. so you cast,
> wait X, game checks to make sure you are still unoccupied, cast spell.
My system is completely event-driven, so the 'cast' command sets up a
series of delayed events which only execute if the caster's concentration
isn't broken. However, delaying magic doesn't help, as the spells
themselves aren't forbidden in 'safe' towns, just negative affects. For a
RL analogy, throwing a ball in the park is quite legal, but beaming an
ussuspecting sod in the head is frowned upon.
> > > 2.) If player manages to get their character to its house, it has to
> > > be designed to prevent determined PC's from entering (protect PC's from
> > > afk PK), so a NPC won't fair all that much better.
> >
> > Just hire a better mage?
>
> see above. and on a sidenote, who says there are any mages for hire?
> you're assuming this is always true, it could be considered "evil" for a
> mage to help other ppl for money, especially if they are similar to a
> priest in that they gain their powers by serving their god.
My concern was "better than what?" better than the average player? How
is the mage better? I assume you mean 'higher level' or whatever power
gradient you choose. More powerful than who then? The average character?
the strongest character? the strongest possible character? Then how did
the mage (who is no different from the PC's) become more powerful than
possible? seems self-contradictory. Plus, such a brute-force approach is
too simplistic, and is not within the boundries of my game world. Also,
houses are designed to keep PCs out. Try to imagine a structure where
your most determined players find it difficult to enter un-invited. Now
design guards that can just waltz in bacause they are simply so powerful
that the PC defences don't leave a scratch. Now place those guards in an
area where they have been relagated to what is generally deemed as the
servile task of policing a small town. Now design a town that both needs
the protection of these guards and hopes to control them.
> > > Basically, I'd have to create a near-omniscient, near-omnipresent, and
> > > near-omnipotent police force protecting this anti-violence zone, but such
> > > a force would by its nature overrun and control the entire mud-world to
> > > impose its doctrine of non-violence everywhere. While this could be an
> > > interesting twist to the mud's theme, its not what I'm looking for.
> >
> > I don't understand how you arrive at this conclusion but no doubt I am
> > missing something.
>
> if you figure that the guards are able to overcome all of the above
> problems, this is a natural conclusion.
near-omniscient -> They've gotta know 1. where a crime is taing place, 2.
who committed the crime, 3. where a door leads (the portal) that no
longer exists and they could never see the other side. 4. be able to
track that player through multiple nonexistant doors in a reasonable time.
near-omnipresent -> If they're not there when the crime was committed,
then there's no reason for them to track the mage. A town is a big place.
The guards have to watch every square foot.
near-omnipotent -> Once they track down the player, they've got to arrest
them. Not an easy task to haul in a powerful mage deeply entrenced in
magical protections. Each house has to be a veritable Fort Knox to keep
players out while the owner is off-line. (although a suggestion elswhere
in this thread for 'security codes' to turn off house defences can be a
step if the house defences are registered with the town) Plus, you have
to conscider that these guards are in effect rent-a-mercs who will most
likely not be willing to die in droves in the hope of swarming a single
outlaw.
But, if you conscider these tasks trivial, then the guards could just be
citizens taking turn on a neigborhood watch. Personally, I'd find the
task of arresting another PC daunting, and NPCs shouldn't have special
shortcuts to their ends. These shortcuts (mega-mobs most notably) turn
more good players away than a p-wipe.
Gunther
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00261" HREF="msg00261.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00240" HREF="msg00240.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)y</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <nightfall#user2,inficad.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00229" HREF="msg00229.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> coder#ibm,net</li></ul>
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<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Sauron <dlove#kusd,kusd.edu></LI></UL></LI>
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<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
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<LI><strong><A NAME="00225" HREF="msg00225.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 10:40 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00220" HREF="msg00220.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 00:43 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00224" HREF="msg00224.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 10:03 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00218" HREF="msg00218.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 00:42 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00222" HREF="msg00222.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 08:56 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00229" HREF="msg00229.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 17:45 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00232" HREF="msg00232.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Tue 04 Nov 1997, 04:32 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00238" HREF="msg00238.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Sauron <a href="mailto:dlove#kusd,kusd.edu">dlove#kusd,kusd.edu</a>, Tue 04 Nov 1997, 21:59 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00243" HREF="msg00243.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Wed 05 Nov 1997, 18:46 GMT
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