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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:44:44 +0000 (GMT)</LI>
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<PRE>
On Sun 23 Nov, Derrick Jones wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > On Sat 15 Nov, coder#ibm,net wrote:
> > > On 09/11/97 at 01:46 PM, Adam Wiggins <nightfall#user2,inficad.com> said:
> > > (if the goal is not immediately obvious) it is (much) more difficult
> > > to "grab" a potential players attention long enough to convince them
> > > that this is something they want to invest time in.
> >
> > > The general solution in such cases is to attempt to use "hooks": things
> > > that grab and lock attention for just long enough for (hopefully) the
> > > other "real" qualities to penetrate and confirm.
> > The one advantage that muds still have over other games is that they are
> > based on text. Many people still prefer reading a book over watching the
> > movie adaption of it because the book allows them more freedom. Freedom
> > to use their imagination, to create their own pictures and interpreta-
> > tion of the characters, scenes and events in the story. In a movie this
> > is much harder to do as the pictures are much harder to escape and since
> > the story has typically to be lobotomised to fit in the 90 or so minutes
> > that are available to tell the story in the movie. Muds have an inherent
> > literary possibility that can be more fully explored. If the game itself
> > allows for it of course.
> > > Are MUDs about to lose their player base due to the fact that they have
> > > evolved away from simple, instant, playability?
> > > Points I would rate as valuable upon introduction to a game:
> > > -- Awareness that I will be able to do interesting "neat" things in the
> > > game.
> > The biggest problem will be what is considered 'neat' and how well that
> > can be combined in a single game.
> If you take this into concideration, its boggles the mind that most new
> players first steps in a new mud generally follow the same path.
> <begin vast generalization\>
> ==First stop is a linear, poorly documented creation process. For games
> that are designed to create diverging plots, new players sure are forced
> to jump thru a bunch of obscure hoops before playing the 'real' game.
> This is compounded by the fact that 80% of the decisions made at
> creation-time are made arbitrarily because new players generally have no
> basis on which to make these choices, as the 'help' files for the creation
> process are either useless or non-existant.
Many of the better muds have at least a rudimentary information about
the various choices involved. Of course they usually manage to miss
the point so the poor first time player is left making all the mista-
kes again. But this problem decreases as the player grows more exper-
ienced in playing muds.
> ==You're then sent some overwritten background story that's generally
> next-to-impossible to follow. Usually these things are streams of run-on
> sentences attempting to mimic the grandiose language of bardic tales of
> the genre epitomized by Beowolf and company. All most accomplish
> (including most of my own attempts, before I deligated the task to
> someone a bit more qualified) is to be unreadable. Perhaps a smiple
> straitforward explaination of the game and gameworld would be far more
> appropriate, even if it seems to delay the 'feel' of a herioc epic
> landscape.
*grin* Something good has to come from tradition :)
> ==Finally, You're dumped into the middle of what is supposed to be your
> hometown, yet you recognize no one, and you know where nothing is. You're
> given a few freebees, wished good luck, then sent on your way, typically
> without the aid of decent on-line help.
> </end rampant generalization>
This is indeed extremely aggravating. And things do not get better no
matter how many muds you have played. I guess this is why so many play-
ers insist on keeping midgard as the hometown. It may be unthematical,
even boring, but at least it is familiar.
> > > -- Awareness that there is more to the game than is
> > > immediately obvious.
> This shouldn't be too difficult, as all that is immediately obvious to a
> new player is that there are a bunch of people running back and forth for
> apparently no reason. Very few of these people stop to talk to the new
> players, as they are all busy storming some distant castle.
This is the infamous newbie-newbie helper problem on muds isn't it?
> Some ideas on getting more information to newbies:
> Keep an immortal-run bulliten board accessable and obvious to new players.
> Keeping the board in the hands of the IMM staff will reduce the noise
> ratio. For new players its difficult to filter the noise with 300
> characters running in and out of some central location.
The one attempt at a starters area I did, had a reading room near the
starting point. It also had a series of classrooms where players could
learn about mudding in general and about that mud in particular, that
was located slightly out of the way so nobody was forced to go through
it if they did not want to.
> Have a decent 'help' command. This should go without saying, but help
> files are typically an afterthought. "I don't want to write help files
> yet, the design may change..." typically results from "Man help files sure
> are boring to write."
Not to mention that those help files are boring to read also! Most of
the time they are rather technical and completely out of character to
say the least. They immediately show that nobody cares about writing
them and that nobody ought to care about reading them.
> Give newbies a map of their hometown, and encourage them to print it out.
> This can be justified by the fact that the character should know his/her
> way around. Players will get a quicker sense of where they are if they
> have a hard copy map of the starting town, and will feel more like they
> belong there.
Better still: Give new players an immediate -knowledge- of their home-
town. So they should be able to type 'go to the baker' and walk their.
From anywhere in town. Why force players to work out where they are on
a map and translate that in a series of moves like n-n-e-n-w-s to find
the baker? Maybe other people are better at reading maps than I am but
I find it difficult and confusing (I keep up making mistakes with east
and west :(
> Provide an IC way to research. I'm thinking of designing a 'library'
> where newbies can learn about the mudworld.
This is a -very- good idea! Everybody on this list who is working on
a mud should add this. Please!
> Players will be encouraged to write their own 'books', which then can
> be read by players logging on. This will give more established players
> (a chance) to create more of a sense of permanence while letting the
> new players get a feel for just how involved the 'world' you have
> created has become.
Yes! This is perfect. Why has nobody thought of this before?
> Their will also be a series of how-to books, history books, and
> information geared to getting players motivated to undertake various
> quests.
Not to mention histories. Great deeds of past heroes. How Boffo attacked
and defeated at least 15 vicious trolls at the same time. How Biffy and
Buffo ventured into the lair of the green dragon to bring Boffo's corpse
back to town so she could be properly buried (and rebirthed). Or the at-
tack by the Drow hordes that almost overcame the cities defenses.
Maybe even allow players to put it into songs and have minstrels in the
various castles sing of the heroic deeds of the players :)
> This concept would compliment an
> algerbra-based magic system nicely (IMHO), as mages would have a means of
> sharing/selling the tricks of their trade. A library is also an ideal
> place to store world-maps (that is if you don't have gas stations) giving
> new characters a feel for the size of your world.
And of course things like a bestiary of those haunted or holy places so
the adventurer might enter forewarned.
> Provide interactive objects/mobiles (c.f. the Newbie Sword discussion
> here) that give players little helpful hints as to how to survive and
> prosper in the gameworld. One example I've seen on a DIKU was a 'newbie
> guide' mobile that wandered around Midgaard just spouting information
> about what is in each room. Kinda annoying after a while, but maybe it
> could be tweaked with headphones to give players information...
The best way may be to provide new players with other new players and
let them work together?
> > I would like to add the following to this little list:
> > > -- New players can immediately play the game. They should not be
> > restricted to a silly training area. Experience should give players
> > the ability to affect the game. Lack of experience should not keep
> > them from playing it.
> The keyword here to me is 'silly'. The mudworld on my mud is a very
> dangerous place. The first and foremost 'goal' of the game will be to
> survive, and thriving will be but a byproduct of surviving greater and
> greater dangers.
Yes, but this must be offsetted against the problem that new players do
not know what area is safe and how to estimate dangers on a mud. If you
restrict them to one or two 'safe' areas you severely limit their par-
ticipation of the game. I feel strongly that everybody should look for
ways to allow even very fresh characters to explore more of the world
without being slaughtered as soon as they set foot outside town.
> I've found that if you throw inexperienced players into
> highly dangerous situations, the survival rate is non-existant. New
> players still play the game, but are exposed to much smaller (in an
> absolute scale, not compared with the character's abilities) dangers.
Maybe there is a way to reduce the dangers for new characters. How about
having the chance of being attacked be proportional to the amount of gold
and equipment a character carries, as well as to the level? It would not
save them from the truly dangerous areas, but it would allow them to spy
out areas they could not reasonably expect to survive a fight.
Or perhaps give low level players with poor equipment a better ability to
sneak around areas. That way they not only can enter those areas but they
can also be of use to high level parties as scouts and guards against any
wandering nasty.
> I wouldn't think twice about having an army of giants storm a town of
> seasoned players, but to a newbie, such a raid would be an impossible
> challenge without some devine rescue. Now this rescue will typically
> end in the player being dumped in some 'newbie zone' (but I would _never_
> call it that!!!) during the duration of the giants' raids.
Most towns have something like a safe room in the temple. That frequently
acts as refuge to low level players during invasion quests. At least this
was so on the muds I have played?
> There are many times when newbies need to be sequestered frmo the 'real'
> game, simply to prevent them from being slaughtered, and there are many
> places none but the most seasoned players dare tread.
I would not dream to claim otherwise. But locking players into one or two
areas that are safe somehow feels wrong to me. And it is this way not only
for the low level players, it is basically true for all levels. Because at
any level there are only a couple of areas that give worthwile experience
points at moderate risk. A level 25 player could still go to the mudschool
and kill rabbits...
> The trick is to keep the new players thinking that they are in fact
> playing the real game, and constantly surprise them as their horizons
> expand. If the players feel like they are being herded, they will be
> turned off, so give the new players _something_ to do, but don't
> overload them too quickly.
I totally agree, but I still belief you should control the risk they
take rather than control their access to the game. At least as far as
most of the gameworld is concerned.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
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<li><strong><A NAME="00404" HREF="msg00404.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Derrick Jones <gunther#online1,magnus1.com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00390" HREF="msg00390.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Derrick Jones <gunther#online1,magnus1.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00265" HREF="msg00265.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com">nightfall#user2,inficad.com</a>, Sun 09 Nov 1997, 21:01 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00301" HREF="msg00301.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Sat 15 Nov 1997, 17:56 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00371" HREF="msg00371.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 23 Nov 1997, 16:07 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00390" HREF="msg00390.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Mon 24 Nov 1997, 06:07 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00402" HREF="msg00402.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Mon 24 Nov 1997, 19:46 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00404" HREF="msg00404.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Tue 25 Nov 1997, 09:10 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00409" HREF="msg00409.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Tue 25 Nov 1997, 22:41 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00413" HREF="msg00413.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Wed 26 Nov 1997, 07:10 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00420" HREF="msg00420.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Thu 27 Nov 1997, 18:40 GMT
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