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<H1>SUMMARY: Skills and Skills improvement</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: SUMMARY: Skills and Skills improvement</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 02 Nov 97 13:10:10 -0800</LI>
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<PRE>
The following is a summary by Marian Griffith of the Skills and Skills
improvement threads a while back. It also happens to be our first ever
summary -- thanks Marian! A copy of the original HTML version is attached
to this post.
<<Sorry for the delay in posting -- RL has been interesting and quite
simply, I forgot>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Summary
My personal comments are in italic. I have attempted to apply some logical
order to the discussion. There's several original articles missing that I
apparently did not save, or moved to a different discussion. My appologies
if the resulting summary looks somewhat fragmented. Marian
Chris Lawrence
[levels are measurement tools. Experience points measure distance between
levels. They have no relation with power though]
Levels are easy targets for players. They want short term goals to
achieve. Having skills show up at levels encourages this view. Skill trees
do solve some of the above but usually require certain skills to be
learned before others become available. Skills really should be available
to all characters at any time and by attempting them they should get
better at them.
This post was the first that shifted the original discussion about levels
towards one that discussed skills and skill development. Also the entire
improving skills through practise is one of the main themes of this entire
discussion.
Adam Wiggins
[Somebody uses levels (ranks) in skill development. How does this relate
to character levels?]
There are two issues here. Skill levels are what is usually shown to the
player. Grades are assigned by an organisation to denote general abilities
within that organisation. They need not reflect the skill levels and may
(preferably) be assigned by players, not by the game. This also introduces
politics in the game.
This is apparently a post from the start of the discussion before it got
its later focus.
Here there is a crucial post by Orion Henry missing. It introduced the
biggest problem associated with skill improvement. It encourages players
to repeatedly practise a skill until it improves.
Marian Griffith
[Orion Henry: Healers sitting in town healing people all day should get
very good at just that. No other skills should improve though. So she
should not be able to deal with unfamiliar diseases or wounds.] This
argues that people in a town give money to a healer to increase her
skills, just in case an emergency occurs and they need more expert help.
This also is true for all professions.
They must be able to learn new skills from other players.
Learning is done by a teacher who can show what to do and a student trying
to emulate it. After learning there is need for practise to improve the
skill to usefull levels.
The remark in blue sparked off a lot of discussion, though there were
other posts that I can't find anymore. The question whether skills should
be learned from players, mobiles, the game (level and guildmaster), all of
them, or none certainly was what kept the thread going
Adam Wiggins
Agrees with the idea that townsfolk support their healer to
broaden her knowledge so she can deal with more than the every
day injuries. Added to that it also makes sense that a better
healer can ask higher fees instead. And that people will better
protect such healers for their valuable knowledge.
Here is were a side thread comes in, one on risk being involved
in learning new things.
It makes sense that players should be able to increase their
combative skills without risk involved, however there is a
trade-off of risk against reward. More dangerous activities
should have a higher reward but that does not mean they are the
only interesting possibility.
If a student can only learn from players there is no way for the
first players to learn anything
Again a critical remark that got a lot of attention throughout the
entire discussion
Chris Gray
If players can't get better at their skills than their teacher this
would mean that eventually all knowledge is lost as each
generation gets a little worse at the skill. In reality students can
become better than their teachers and they may discover new
techniques. Even large amount of mindless practise should
occasionally be rewarded.
Marian Griffith
Agrees with Chris Gray's point. Perhaps a better solution
would be if the players can consciously decided to study a
skill in an attempt to improve on it without aid from a
teacher or to invent new skills. This should require a lot of
time and investment such that most players would not
bother with it. Nor should the game force them to do so.
Chris Lawrence
Somehow practising a skill should improve a player's mastery of
it. By doing something a lot of time the player should be right to
expect to get better at it.
This ties in with the missing post by Orion Henry
This requires a finely grained difference of skills. E.g. Chopping
wood all the time should make a player better at doing just that.
It does not necessarily mean that player gets any better at
fighting with an axe. Unless the skills are grained very finely
there is going to be a problem with overlap between similar
skills. But that is going to cause a problem with the number of
skills.
Having to search for a specific teacher to magically increase ones
skill is not attractive. Trying to find and persuade another player
to do the same is much more attractive. The original skills could
come from the wizards of the game or players can discover
skills.
The last remark refers to Chris Gray's post. Also the presence of
teachers became a hot topic for the discussion.
Adam Wiggins
Mobiles are always available. And the allow to tie in
quests. This should not be the only way to learn though,
just the fastest. Speed at which one learns depends on the
difference between your skill and that of the opponent.
Teachers should not be the only option. A player must be
able to master skills without any help.
Chris Gray
Improvement should only follow attempt
(successfull) of things more difficult than
previously.
Jamie Norrish
Using a skill improves on it. Teaching/instruction
may be helpfull.
Marian Griffith
Some missing previous posts discussed the necessity of teachers.
Rather than assuming they were convenience this sub thread
assumes they are necessary
Players could start with a certain (low) potential for all possible
skills. They can practise skills and improve their actual ability
to that potential. They can also receive teaching and increase
their potential for one or more skills. Practice won't improve the
potential and teaching won't improve the actual skill.
Or, players can invest time and resources into increase their
knowledge beyond the limit of their teaching. Ideally it should
even allow them to introduce entirely new skills (the wizards of
the game allowing this of course).
In a separate thread Chris Lawrence and Adam Wiggins
discussed the difference between theoretical knowledge and
practical application of that knowledge, which seems similar to
the potential vs ability above.
A missing post by Adam Wiggins discussed the idea of
learning through practising. An example with learning to
juggle balls was given
Marian Griffith Learning entirely new things is not
possible by just attempting them. Certainly not to any
degree that is usefull. At some point examples or teaching
are needed.
As Adam Wiggins pointed out players can become no
more than mediocre in a skill unless they receive teaching.
Watching another player or mobile do something and
attempting to reproduce it already is a form of teaching.
Active involvement of the teacher ought to speed up this
and increase the chance of success.
This ties back into previous posts that further explore this
issue Especial Adam Wiggin's.
Finally a post by Matt Chatterley that is not connected to the entire
Skill Development thread but raises some interesting questions that
deserve to be studied more closely
Matt Chatterley
Skills and knowledge are currently handled clumsily, suited to pen and
paper (mud) style of playing and not conductive to roleplaying. Two
proposals how to change this situation.
1.Have a range of skills for social, mental, physical, etc. Problem
is that unless there is use for those skills players are going to
ignore them, in favour of more usefull (typically combat
oriented) skills.
2.Strongly RP focussed games should not have skills at all, but
rather be free form. There should not be combat code (or
anything else) coded into the game. Problem here is that of most
mushes where people are often waiting for something to happen,
which doesn't.
Summary by Marian Griffith
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net
----------(*) Internet: coder#ibm,net
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...</PRE>
<P><A HREF="bin00001.bin" >Summary</A></P>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00227" HREF="msg00227.html">newbie</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marc Eyrignoux <Marc.Eyrignoux#efrei,fr></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00661" HREF="msg00661.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Stephen Zepp <a href="mailto:zoran#enid,com">zoran#enid,com</a>, Thu 11 Dec 1997, 00:24 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00664" HREF="msg00664.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Stephen Zepp <a href="mailto:zoran#enid,com">zoran#enid,com</a>, Thu 11 Dec 1997, 00:46 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00865" HREF="msg00865.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 18 Dec 1997, 15:42 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00903" HREF="msg00903.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)</A></strong>,
Alex Oren <a href="mailto:alexo#bigfoot,com">alexo#bigfoot,com</a>, Sun 21 Dec 1997, 16:45 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00214" HREF="msg00214.html">SUMMARY: Skills and Skills improvement</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Sun 02 Nov 1997, 21:12 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00227" HREF="msg00227.html">newbie</A></strong>,
Marc Eyrignoux <a href="mailto:Marc.Eyrignoux#efrei,fr">Marc.Eyrignoux#efrei,fr</a>, Mon 03 Nov 1997, 13:05 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00234" HREF="msg00234.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] newbie</A></strong>,
Miroslav Silovic <a href="mailto:silovic#zesoi,fer.hr">silovic#zesoi,fer.hr</a>, Tue 04 Nov 1997, 10:47 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00236" HREF="msg00236.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] newbie</A></strong>,
coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Tue 04 Nov 1997, 17:44 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00239" HREF="msg00239.html">Sorry...</A></strong>,
Bjarni Norddahl <a href="mailto:btn#dark,x.dtu.dk">btn#dark,x.dtu.dk</a>, Wed 05 Nov 1997, 08:46 GMT
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