<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] --> <!--X-From-R13: Rreevpx Xbarf <thagureNbayvar1.zntahf1.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:33:17 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.SV4.3.93.971209034647.20515B-200000@online1 --> <!--X-Content-Type: multipart/mixed --> <!--X-Reference: 348C481C.7FC81771#4cs,com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00563.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00565.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00554.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00566.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00564">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00564">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00564">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Derrick Jones <<A HREF="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:40:32 -0500 (EST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: Derrick Jones <<A HREF="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</A>></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Vadim Tkachenko wrote: > First of all, I want to state clearly that I'm not a fan of pkilling, > and I know what is a MU* harrasment (a close friend of mine, a girl, was > a victim - and that wasn't even the MUD, that was just a talker). I'd like to add the disclaimer that I have left pk in my design. Seems that no one to be on the recieving end of a pk, but so many want to have the option of being on the dealing end of it... > > Now, let's try to look at the problem from the different angle. > > Can somebody explain to me why > - it's perfectly normal for a MUD player to go hunting after rats, > rabbits, squirrels, hoblins, dragons, you name it; > - it's not pleasant, but it's still OK to be killed by a monster (even > the squirrel, as it was mentioned before) > - but your hearth is broken and you're about to cry out loud in despair > when the real player kills you? > > I've been there, and that was my state of mind, too, so I've tried to > analyze that from a psychological point of view. > > My answer seems to be - this is your own ego popping out from the ears > of your (not _your_, Marian, abstract 'your') character. [snip] Yes, its a big ego smasher to get pk'ed. Some other player working against the same odds has manages to get 'better' than you in the game. Not only that, they have decided to rub your face in it by killing you. Think of the damage caused to the player/character in each case. On a non-perma-death mud, a mobile kills you, you sprint back to the room, pick up your old gear, and start again where you left off (after a bit of work to regain whatever you lost as a death penalty). Even on a Perma-Death mud, you can *eventually* get back to how you were before being killed. The time to re-coup is just longer. But when you're pk'ed, you have the normal death penalties, the there are also social penalties. In almost every design, groups of players working together a much more effective than individual players (a Good Thing if you ask me). A pk victem (doesn't need to be pk, could be any harm caused by other players) is hampered in that they are less able to function well in groups of other players (You have to watch your back, can't trust a random group) and will never fully recover the socialization level prior to the attack. New players are especially vulerable to this harm (their characters are typically weak, and they don't have knowledge of the playerbase), and tend to leave if it persists. > There is a remedy, though. [remedy to the psycoloical difference between being mob-killed and pk'ed] > I believe that if you wouldn't know WHAT exactly has killed you, it > would be much easier to go with. In other words, you just can't > differentiate the monster/NPC from the different player, nothing > personal will be left. This is no small task. Especially in most designs where all of the players are humanoids, and the vast majority of target creatures are not. Players quickly learn the 'normal' NPCs in each area, and characters typically stand out as they wander much more than any normal mobile should. Imagine a hack-N-slash mud where all the mobiles ran around speedwalking and killing a buch of stuff, then recalling before repeating the process somewhere else. Imagine the sheer spam in town when every creature decides to recall. Roleplay muds would be virtually impossible, unless you manage to pass the Turing test for mob AI. > So, I strip all the personal information from the players until they get > powerful enough to overcome the initial kill'em all syndrome (BTW, can > you tell me - is my assumption right that the more experienced player > is, the less chance [s]he behaves like jerk?). Yes and no. If you sample players after, say, 1 hour of play-time, you'll get a fair approximation of the percentage of jerks logging on. This gives them enough time to establish a bit of confidence, and allows them to begin to influence (harass) other players. Hopefully, the jerks in the group are quickly weeded out (deleted, banned, or set to 'walk a strait line'). Experienced players know what is and is not accepted/expected from the playerbase, and if they are unwilling to work within the social mores of your virtual world, they typically get frustrated and leave. I've found, however, that simply denying players abusable powers until they have met certain requirements (on-line time, level, etc) simply pushes back the envelope of how long it takes jerks to surface. Also, the influence of these characters is generaly larger than the 1-hour jerks, and any punishments upon them will cause long-lasting ripples in the playerbase. One thing that would be prevented, however, would be people creating new characters simply to be jerks, as abuse of powers generaly involves the risk of a greater inevestment (purging a character with 1000 hours of on-line time is a serious threat, and many players will behave under this threat.) [snip] > Also, I think that the idea about muting the offender is excellent, the > only thing I'd add to it that I'd strip the offender from his/her body > and give them, say, a rat's one. In other words, be prepared for others > do treat you as you've treated them before. There comes a point in which the player would be better off losing whatever 'soul points' he has accumulated, and restarting. Turning someone into a rat may simply be a dramatic way to purge them back to start-up abilities. [snip rest] Derrick </PRE> <PRE> begin: vcard fn: Vadim Tkachenko n: Tkachenko;Vadim org: 4C Solutions, Inc. email;internet: vadimt#4cs,com title: Web Developer x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00717" HREF="msg00717.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> coder#ibm,net</li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00566" HREF="msg00566.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matt Chatterley <root#mpc,dyn.ml.org></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00540" HREF="msg00540.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Vadim Tkachenko <vadimt#4cs,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00563.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] META: FAQ and Thread Summaries</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00565.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00554.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00566.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00564"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00564"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00518" HREF="msg00518.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 07 Dec 1997, 19:21 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00534" HREF="msg00534.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Ling <a href="mailto:K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk">K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk</a>, Mon 08 Dec 1997, 15:44 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00540" HREF="msg00540.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vadimt#4cs,com">vadimt#4cs,com</a>, Mon 08 Dec 1997, 19:13 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00554" HREF="msg00554.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 09 Dec 1997, 06:13 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00564" HREF="msg00564.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Tue 09 Dec 1997, 09:33 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00566" HREF="msg00566.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Tue 09 Dec 1997, 10:00 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00584" HREF="msg00584.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Tue 09 Dec 1997, 19:06 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00639" HREF="msg00639.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Wed 10 Dec 1997, 17:39 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00691" HREF="msg00691.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></strong>, Derrick Jones <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Thu 11 Dec 1997, 08:11 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>