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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Matt Chatterley <<A HREF="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:30:50 +0000 (GMT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:neddy#itl,net">neddy#itl,net</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Marian Griffith wrote:
> On Wed 30 Jul, clawrenc#cup,hp.com wrote:
[Snip my original post again]
> > First thoughts on a representational model:
> > Thus the leaves of the herb WaggaWagga might have a coordinate weight
> > of (-5, 8, 3) presuming the simplistic case of only 3 principles. The
> > root of the UmbaUmba plant might have a value of (2, 9, -10). Mix
> > then together with GooGoo mud (0, 0, 2), and you get a substance (-3,
> > 17, -5). That location can be plotted in the coordinate system and a
> > result computed:
>
> Admitting immediately that the finer points of all the above are proba-
> bly missed by me, this seems to me to be rather predictable. If you put
> two sleeping potions together you get a stronger sleeping potions?
> You would at least need a way to make sure that you cannot just mix two
> or three ingredients together and get potion or poultice. And equally
> important: even if both the herb WaggaWagga and the UmbaUmba plant are
> known for their sleep inducing qualities that should not mean that you
> can just replace the one with the other and get a similar result. That
> is what makes alchemy an art and a lore.
You need notions of quantity, and concentration to ensure mixing two
identical potions together produces a double-mass of potion, rather than a
single mass of double-strength potion, and also that mixing potion A with
concentration 0.5 and potion B, identical except its concentration is 0.7,
gives you a double-mass of potion C, identical but with concentration 0.6.
> > A minor weakening agent (-3) that also a *really* effective sleeping
> > draught (17), and reduces physical dexterity (-5).
>
> First off. You could start with having the numbers represent general ef-
> fects rather than specifics. That way to create a sleeping potion you'll
> have to create a high value for several of those numbers.
Having specific effects would be nasty by virtue of the sheer volume of
coordinates required. Generalisation to perhaps a dozen, and using
combination of these is probably best.
> Secondly I think it would be better if unless only specific numbers are
> high and all others are low but not too low the potion just does not do
> much useful. I.e. a potion in which all numbers are high is just a kind
> of muddy water. Nourishing perhaps but not magical/mystical in nature.
> And potions that have very high negative values act the same as high po-
> sitive values.
Not necessarily water - but something unremarkable perhaps. Something with
very high values for everything might be very acidic, and a good magical
electrolyte, but unremarkable otherwise. Negative values are merely the
reflection of positive ones - ie, a very negative acidity would be a very
positive alkalinity.
> > The reason for doing a coordinate system rather than a flat expression
> > for each axis is that it allows you to put in break values. Simple
> > things like values on this axis smaller than X have this effect, and
> > larger than Y have this totally other effect. Compound that across
> > multiple axis, and you can get a result which is far removed from the
> > initial components.
>
> I don't think I know what this means but no doubt it makes sense :)
It does, if I understand correctly. If X is less than Y, it does this, but
if it's larger than Y, it does that. Where Y is a definitive and specific
value.
> > Next up would be to then special case certain combinations (reflective
> > alchemy), such that components A (which normally has a very simple
> > effect), and B (similarly simple), in combination do something else
> > entirely (ie mutate into a totally different coordinate.
>
> Which is quite the point of alchemy. You combine ingredients and rituals
> that in and of themselves do nothing special and get a result that does
> something useful.
This is bringing in another issue - that of external influences on
reactions (eg magical chants, special instruments, etc). I intend to have
a 'mixing' function that will take arguments of the compounds, and any
special conditions which apply.
> > This special casing can be handled without undue difficulty by
> > building it into the base system. Again, going back to the simplistic
> > 3 principles above, just add various other "fake" principles after
> > that. Thus WuggaWugga could be (-5, 8, 3, 0, 12, 2) and UmbaUmba (2,
> > 9, -10, -5, 9, -10). Then when they're mixed the result is (-3, 17,
> > -2, -5, 21, -8). Now you can do your special casing on the fake
> > values (-5, 21, -8). Say things like if the first fake value is less
> > than -5 it was apply (X,Y,Z) to the base matrix, it its over +5 apply
> > (Q,R,S) etc. This results in a really simple way to codify the
> > exceptions and and special cases while allowing new components to be
> > added which have their own unique behaviour.
>
> This sounds rather complicated to me. Isn't there a way to do this
> without math?
There is, but it's really a non option if you intend on any amount of
chemicals, or chemicals that do not have to be centrally registered.
> marian
> --
> Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
> out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
> my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
> will there be loneliness ...
>
> Rolan Choosing Talia,
> Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
>
>
>
>
Regards,
-Matt Chatterley
<A HREF="http://user.itl.net/~neddy/index.html">http://user.itl.net/~neddy/index.html</A>
"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's
mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." -George Orwell
</PRE>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00337" HREF="msg00337.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00564" HREF="msg00564.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 14 Aug 1997, 20:43 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00336" HREF="msg00336.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 02 Aug 1997, 19:12 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00480" HREF="msg00480.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 12 Aug 1997, 01:07 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00337" HREF="msg00337.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 02 Aug 1997, 19:13 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00338" HREF="msg00338.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sat 02 Aug 1997, 23:31 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00369" HREF="msg00369.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Virtual Chemistry</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Mon 04 Aug 1997, 15:33 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00101" HREF="msg00101.html">C&C and Event Rescheduling</A></strong>,
Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Sat 12 Jul 1997, 04:04 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00151" HREF="msg00151.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] META: C&C and Event Rescheduling</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 17 Jul 1997, 03:13 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00152" HREF="msg00152.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] C&C and Event Rescheduling</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 17 Jul 1997, 03:33 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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