<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Worlds VS Games, etc {was GMuds, UO} --> <!--X-From-R13: "Ybfgre, Dncu" <exbfgreNbevtva.rn.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: from fabius.globecomm.net [207.51.48.6] by in10.ibm.net id 870797068.45606-1 Tue Aug 5 16:04:28 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: c=US%a=_%p=EA%l=MOLACH-970805160400Z-14439#molach,origin.ea.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Worlds VS Games, etc {was GMuds, UO}</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00394.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00396.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00422.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00382.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00395">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00395">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00395">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Worlds VS Games, etc {was GMuds, UO}</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Worlds VS Games, etc {was GMuds, UO}</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Koster, Raph" <<A HREF="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:04:00 -0500</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> Catching up on posts finally... On Wednesday, July 30, 1997 2:44 PM, Nathan Yospe[SMTP:yospe#hawaii,edu] wrote: > I've never bothered with economies, finding them far less important, and > far less interesting, than environments. > [snip truly fascinating description of warzone game] Wow, that's awesome. I'd classify it as sort of a different endeavor than a typical mud... more like a stab at making a virtual reality experience in a particular setting. You know how when VR is discussed it's always very detailed settings that are limited in scale? That's what's your system sounds like--the immersive selected experience--as opposed to the broader strokes with less detail that are implied by trying to support a wider range of settings. I think it's an equally valid approach, and rather exciting. > :We use a classless, levelless system. Skills atrophy from disuse. It's > :not to everyone's taste. It seems to be working, so far. Whether it > :will retain the totally goal-oriented players is yet to be seen, since > :it does not provide a long string of milestones, but rather obliges > :the player to create milestones for themselves at intervals. > > Sounds quite a bit like my own system. Are related skills codependant? Yes, there' a couple of mechanisms tying things together. Our stats also atrophy and grow through usage and disuse... and skill success is weighted based on related stats, atrophy occurs based partly on skills that are related via stats, in there are also direct links, such as musicianship being required for higher level musical skills, etc. > The one I expect to > be most popular is modelled as "BackStage", complete with "Dressing Rooms" > and "Makeup" (Dressing Rooms are character creation, makeup is character > _persona_ creation, where a history (past) and personality (which is used > for subconcious mannerisms - a bit of color, but sometimes actually > relevant, in cases of being incited to anger, for example.) I love the idea of unconscious mannerisms, of enforced roleplay, but also think that it'll be of limited appeal. Those who wish to immerse themselves in a different reality, in a different body, they'll love it. The gamer with a narrower mindset will complain that it removes control from them... I said: > :having a varied, evolving setting (even though it only > :evolves in that "middle layer" of NPCs/creatures/economy) encourages > :roleplay, encourages exploration, encourages alternate styles of > :achievement, and rewards it with changed circumstances rather than > :with a milestone. And Nathan replied: > But it also set you up for disaster if you don't have either a way to > retain euilibrium, or to reset conditions. Say, for example, half the game > was burned down in riots. How long does it take the game to recover? Or is > there a mechanism for recovery? Or is there a "reset" switch to undo the > damage? Or is it impossible to burn half the game down? We do have a regular old spawner system underneath everything. So the game WILL "grow" back. However, I also view the riots and the resultant difficult times as part of the game. It's a great reason to have the tools for players to maintain an economy, because after a disaster they caused, they can rebuild. Right now our economy is far from balanced correctly, as shopkeepers run out of funds with which to purchase items. Yet players have set themselves up in their shops as an alternate economy. I view this as a great and wonderful thing. :) Yes, we do limit to what extent you can burn the game down. Most of the map proper is static. > :The problem with "game" style design in a mud setting is that you run > :out of game. Games are finite. In a fiscal sense, you wanna keep folks > :around as long as possible, of course, to get their money, and the > :more "infinite" the game is, the better. Remember that most mudders > :only play for around 3-6 months, and even dinos tend to give up after > :2 years or so. > > Would having an infinite world alleviate this? I'm not entirely sure. I wasn't speaking of an infinite world, necessarily. I was referring to the typical milestine setup of game-oriented muds. Since achievement is measured in levels, when you run out of levels, the game is "over." Likewise, with static quests and puzzles, static "middle layers" of NPC behaviors, etc, the features are quickly exhausted. Making these things dynamic and evolving drastically extends the lifetime of the game, IMHO. The danger of course is that elements be simplistic and repetitive. (A problem that UO hasn't licked, btw). > Some of the great ideas are mutually incompatible. Always. :) But we can learn from all of 'em. :) > (Love potion code, at least the version I coded to > follow this, results in an inability to focus on anything else when the > subject of the potion is present in the room, and constant "thoughts" > about the subject, slipped in whenever a trigger (think eliza) pops up. > There are also penalties to the victims ability to carry out action > against the subject.) I gotta say, i LOVE your approach. :) I haven't heard of anyone else working with this degree of character enforcement... -Raph </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00394.html">Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00396.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00422.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00382.html">Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00395"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00395"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00400" HREF="msg00400.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Graphic MUDS/perspectives</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Wed 06 Aug 1997, 01:58 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00406" HREF="msg00406.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Graphic MUDS/perspectives</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 06 Aug 1997, 09:34 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00397" HREF="msg00397.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></strong>, Cynbe ru Taren <a href="mailto:cynbe#laurel,actlab.utexas.edu">cynbe#laurel,actlab.utexas.edu</a>, Wed 06 Aug 1997, 00:26 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00422" HREF="msg00422.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></strong>, Michael Hohensee <a href="mailto:michael#sparta,mainstream.net">michael#sparta,mainstream.net</a>, Thu 07 Aug 1997, 16:08 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00395" HREF="msg00395.html">[MUD-Dev] Worlds VS Games, etc {was GMuds, UO}</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 23:04 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00382" HREF="msg00382.html">Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></strong>, Michael Hohensee <a href="mailto:michael#mainstream,net">michael#mainstream,net</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 00:51 GMT <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00394" HREF="msg00394.html">Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></strong>, Michael Hohensee <a href="mailto:michael#sparta,mainstream.net">michael#sparta,mainstream.net</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 21:12 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00398" HREF="msg00398.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></strong>, Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Wed 06 Aug 1997, 00:38 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00524" HREF="msg00524.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 13 Aug 1997, 23:12 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>