<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface --> <!--X-From-R13: Qnyvona Fverfvnf Rnexybpx <pnyvonaNqnexybpx.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:24:22 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 01BCC8FE.3BB11280.caliban#darklock,com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01420.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01422.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01471.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01445.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01421">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01421">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01421">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Caliban Tiresias Darklock <<A HREF="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:26:29 -0400</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Wednesday, September 24, 1997 4:48 AM, Maddy [SMTP:maddy#fysh,org] wrote: > I don't think any of my PnP characters have ever stopped developing and I've > had some of them for years. They stop developing as soon as you hit the limitations of the game system (max level or max skills or max abilities, or even just a point of diminishing returns), the limitations of the medium (the field allocated in the MUD data structure overflows or maxes out), or the limitations of the game world (your character wanders into the wrong area and dies instantly because you typed 'e' instead of 'w'). If, for example, you were playing a permanent death system and you died, no further development is possible. Period. If you're playing stock AD&D, a normal character can be resurrected a MAXIMUM of 18 times. Period. Constitution drops by one every time you're resurrected, and you get weak and sickly long before that. On a P&P game, incidentally, you have a personality that can be developed infinitely. Even when any of the listed 'maximums' are reached, even if you never gain a single experience point and never get off level 1. On most MUDs, you don't have this option. You try to speak to someone in character, and they look at you strangely and ask you some game mechanics question. Lady Derfle has arrived. >'Greetings, fair maiden. And where art thou bound? You say "Greetings, fair maiden. And where art thou bound?" Lady Derfle says "what level are you" Lady Derfle says "im 10" Lady Derfle says "wanna group?" Lady Derfle says "i need xp" Lady Derfle says "so i can level and use these armbands" Lady Derfle says "if i log off ill lose them" >quit Please spare me the Diku comments, I have yet to be on any MUD where people actually RESPONDED in character. > What do you class as "no real reason". If you > were playing an orc and I were playing a dwarf, it would make perfect sense > for me to kill you. You're a vile scum sucking orc, a spawn of evil > etc..etc.. It also makes perfect sense for anyone in your game world to randomly catch fatal diseases, so why not implement that? > There could be a religion that requires its members to kill > anyone with blond hair. There could be all sorts of things. What exactly does this religion add to the game? Ummm... pissed off players and roving groups of antisocial dorks. Maybe we should do something different. > Well the problem is, is that all your balance problems seem to be based upon > XP/Level based systems and they don't really make sense if you don't have > either of them. I'm sure that I'll have loads of balance problems to start > with, which is why I'm going to take most of my system from an already > stable PnP system. I'm basing my examples on level/XP based systems because it's relatively certain that we all understand how those work. I could always base it on the attribute/skill based system White Wolf uses, but that's very MUSHlike and people would complain. I could also base it on Amber diceless, but people would still complain. I could base it on Man, Myth, and Magic which had a dozen nationalities and a hundred odd skills and sixty some classes, but I don't think anyone here has any experience with it. What *should* I target toward? 'Level' is a generic term we all understand. Race, class, experience, spell, we all understand what these mean. There IS an equivalent in your system, regardless of how you classify it. Ars Magica doesn't really *need* a canned spellbook; you can do anything you like, magic is infinitely mutable, and really a 'spell' ought to be a foreign concept under this system. But there ARE established 'standard' magic uses, because people demanded them -- thus, they are spells just like any other game might have. > > I have that problem on occasion myself. I mean, really, you can emote > > about anything, and I see people who pose such ludicrous things you feel > > like demanding to see their character sheets. Building a house of cards, > > no problem. Balancing a dagger on the top? Hold on a second here, > > Houdini! Make a roll for that one... > > A good reason to get rid of emotes? Baby and bathwater. > Well think about the situation. You're walking along and you see this guy > walking towards you with a sword. At that stage I'd give the guy a wide > berth as will all the NPCs walking about too. What if you were walking > along and a mobile/NPC killed you? There isn't really that much difference, > you're still dead. There are vastly different power levels in the game. I may be walking around with some decent armor and a hefty weapon, but some other guy will have no armor or weaponry at all, and someone else may be wearing all but impregnable armor and some vastly damaging weapon that ignores all physical armor worn by the opponent. If I can take twelve sword hits on average, and that weapon does as much damage as *twenty* sword hits on the average, it's a one shot. Even without any weaponry, if he's significantly stronger and faster and more skilled than I am, he's going to win. Period. And I *do* have the same problem with mobs, incidentally. > If there isn't any risk in the game, then there really > isn't any point in playing. You'll just wander about, swatting NPCs like > they were flies safe in the knowledge that they couldn't harm you. Consider... Game 1: If I start a fight, I may get killed. Game 2: I will never be killed, ever. Game 3: If I log on, I may get killed. Game 1 has a moderate risk. Game 2 has no risk. Game 3 has an extreme risk. Game 2 is no fun after a while, because you figure out there's nothing to stop you. Game 3 is no fun after a while, because it's essentially random. Game 1, on the other hand, carries a definite 'fault' assignment -- if *I* start a fight, *I* may get killed. It's my implicit consent to the possibility. People seem to like the idea of Game 3 far too much for my taste, because they're betting they'll be the ones doing the killing. > Yes I can see this is a problem, but the game would only suck if the other > player could kill you in one blow. I'm expecting that you'll have several > seconds before he'll even get his first attack in, giving you plenty of time > to get away. If he does kill you and other people have seen him kill you, > he's going to be a lot of hot water. The locals will report him as being > your murderer and the local Lord will make him a wanted criminal. If, if, if, if, if, then it's not a problem? In other words it's not a problem 2^-5 of the time? One out of 32? Yeah, that's a good argument. > Don't you think it a challeng surviving in a hostile environment, where > everyone wants to cut you into tiny pieces? Not when 'everyone' includes people who have significantly more experience in the environment than I do. Which it does, because your development team and your friends and the people you like will get onto it earlier, so by the time the public can get onto it there's an existing userbase of maybe a dozen people who are already experts. Those people proceed to dominate the game. The rest of the userbase can avoid them. Some small part of that userbase then gets good at the game, and eventually begins to rival the existing experts. Over time, the number of experts grows, and the longer the game has been around the less attractive it is to new players -- because it now operates purely on an expert level, and the new player is hopelessly outclassed. Such a game really and truly sucks. > Well I'd assume that the vast numbers of people on it, actually do like it. > The game has been targeted at X, so like you've already said, Y is going to > hate it. Admittedly it seems odd that the founders just left it running, > since it is their game I'd have expected they'd just take it down. They were going to, because Group X wasn't playing: Group Y was. They expected Groups X and Y to both log onto the game, with Group X eventually outweighing Group Y as the game was more targeted to their desires. However, Group Y turned out to be so distasteful to Group X (even in small numbers) that Group X would rather leave a good game than hang out in the same place with Group Y. Group Y eventually outnumbered Group X. Members of Group Y took over the game, creating a social culture to their liking even though there were few game constructs to support it. When the founding staff said 'this is a big mistake' and indicated a desire to take it down, some members of Group Y wanted the game to stay up and volunteered to maintain it, run the site, etc. The founding members, being reasonable and fair-minded people, said no problem and turned it over. =+[caliban#darklock,com]=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=[<A HREF="http://www.darklock.com/]+=">http://www.darklock.com/]+=</A> "It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institution, and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new one." -- Machiavelli =+=+=+[We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of dreams]+=+=+=+= </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01510" HREF="msg01510.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <nightfall#user1,inficad.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01445" HREF="msg01445.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Nathan Yospe <yospe#hawaii,edu></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01420.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01422.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01471.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01445.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01421"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01421"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01409" HREF="msg01409.html">[MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Wed 24 Sep 1997, 10:42 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01413" HREF="msg01413.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 24 Sep 1997, 17:11 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01456" HREF="msg01456.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 25 Sep 1997, 22:11 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01471" HREF="msg01471.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 26 Sep 1997, 04:02 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01421" HREF="msg01421.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 24 Sep 1997, 19:24 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01445" HREF="msg01445.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Nathan Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Thu 25 Sep 1997, 18:39 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01463" HREF="msg01463.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 25 Sep 1997, 23:41 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01475" HREF="msg01475.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 26 Sep 1997, 06:44 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01479" HREF="msg01479.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Fri 26 Sep 1997, 08:36 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>