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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</A></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 11 Aug 97 18:10:06 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:claw#null,net">claw#null,net</A></LI>
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<PRE>
In <<A HREF="msg00340.html">199708021819.LAA23458#animal,blarg.net</A>>, on 08/02/97
at 11:24 AM, "Brandon Van Every" <vanevery#blarg,net> said:
>Tedium comes from positing that "everyone must accumulate
>wealth/resources to be successful." Mathematically speaking, if the
>goal is wealth then you're creating a mono-axial system of game
>interaction. Call it the "money" axis. Everyone is struggling to
>move towards the positive end of the axis, and there aren't any
>orthogonal axes to pursue instead.
This can be varied by extending to:
Everyone is struggling to accumulate resources.
The definition of a resource occupies a multi-tude of axis, each
perpendicular to if not contradictory to all the other axies.
Then, yes, you could accumulate a wealth of resource Z, but be in
poverty on resource X and Y. There's still a single axis on resource
accumulation, but the definition of a resource is now complex and
inter-dependant.
>Do you always have to "save up" to get power in the game?
Spend to earn is another vector.
>In a mathematical, systemic sense, I can think of 3 ways to break
>this deadlock of tedium:
>1) make other axes that are truly orthogonal. I'll leave other
>people to give an example of this, it would make for interesting
>discussion.
I have such, but they're not truly orthogonal:
1) Resource collection is one goal.
2) Power to create resources without implicit cost is another.
3) Power to affect others is a third.
4) Godhood (represents max on all above).
Concentration on any one tends to prevent or diminish progress gained
on others. #2 btw is sympathetic with #4.
>2) Map the axes in 2 directions. Why is always having "more" money
>the goal? One could concoct scenarios where having "more" money is
>good for some things, but "less" money is good for others. Then the
>player becomes caught in the tradeoff of whether to have more or less
>money at any given time. The system becomes a dynamic balance
>between the forces of "more" or "less" money, rather than
>ever-expanding gaseous vacuum towards more money.
cf making the goal to die at exactly the right moment. I've been
trying for some time now to think of a decent scenario where this
would be a logical goal.
>3) Make distinct points or regions of the axis qualitatively
>significant. In this view it isn't important to have "more" or
>"less" money, but rather to have "the right amount of money" within
>some tolerance value. This destroys the notion of accumulation. If
>you've got the right amount of money, then there's no incentive to
>accumulate. Unless you want to "hop" to a different "island" of
>money, so as to experience a different "quality" in the universe.
>Which isn't really about accumulation, since you're only going to hop
>a known, finite distance to another island. Although if you wanted
>to make it more challenging, you wouldn't tell anyone where the
>islands are. Then the game becomes a matter of iterative research,
>with people wondering "hmm, I'm hanging out pretty good at 26, but I
>wonder what happens if I move to 63?" One could metaphorize this to
>"tuning the channel on a radio."
Functional inflexion points... interesting. Must think more on this.
>In general, what I'm developing here is a mathematical notion of
>ECOLOGY, rather than ECONOMY. Economy is boring. It's based on the
>ever-expanding gas cloud known as The Almighty Dollar. Most of us
>have to play this game in real life, which is why we don't
>necessarily want to do it when we're online.
I like unstable self-collapsing positive feedback loops. They make
for interestingly dynamic ecologies.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net
(Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net
---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc#cup,hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00340" HREF="msg00340.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Brandon Van Every" <vanevery#blarg,net></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00384" HREF="msg00384.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 03:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00386" HREF="msg00386.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 10:33 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00389" HREF="msg00389.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 13:59 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00392" HREF="msg00392.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com">nightfall#user2,inficad.com</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 15:18 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00481" HREF="msg00481.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 12 Aug 1997, 01:23 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00361" HREF="msg00361.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Mon 04 Aug 1997, 05:10 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00380" HREF="msg00380.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Nation of shopkeepers</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Tue 05 Aug 1997, 00:20 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00324" HREF="msg00324.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] DESIGN: The purpose of MUDding?</A></strong>,
Brandon Van Every <a href="mailto:vanevery#blarg,net">vanevery#blarg,net</a>, Fri 01 Aug 1997, 14:04 GMT
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00325" HREF="msg00325.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] DESIGN: The purpose of MUDding?</A></strong>,
Brandon Van Every <a href="mailto:vanevery#blarg,net">vanevery#blarg,net</a>, Sat 02 Aug 1997, 00:34 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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