<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)) --> <!--X-From-R13: pynjerapNphc.uc.pbz --> <!--X-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:44:07 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199709242241.PAA15362#xsvr3,cup.hp.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 01BCC786.23AD3430.caliban#darklock,com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and i</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01425.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01427.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01369.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01467.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01426">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01426">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01426">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</A></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 24 Sep 97 13:10:30 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> In <<A HREF="msg01369.html">01BCC786.23AD3430.caliban#darklock,com</A>>, on 09/23/97 at 08:35 AM, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com> said: >Remove the who command, and I log on and see a series of people that >may or may not be PCs. I try to find out where something is. I can't >tell who's a PC, who's been here a while, who's high level, who's of >an appropriate class, it becomes a major pain in the behind. I see >plenty of NPCs who would be able to help me, *if* they were able to >understand and respond to the question, which they aren't. Bingo. The more interesting fact is that this can be equally argued as either a Good or Bad Thing, for precisely the same reasons. The primary effect I see of removing the WHO command, and removing the global namespace I do both) is that of removing the sense of the individual players as being a member of a larger group of players all playing the same game. It removes the sense of an instant social context, "All of us on the who list are players," and with the removal of the global namespace removes even the pretense of baing able to place oneself in any even remote sort of social relevance as a new player. The result is that it tends to devolve them all into more isolationist viewpoints where they are alone in a strange and confusing world without clear ability to identify or locate friends or allies, or even know who or what might be any of these things. Temporarily ignoring the thematic question as to the (dis)advatages of this (both sides are arguable), it does place a premium on experience and social connections within the world, and as such, also presents a (daunting?) barrier to entry for new players to the game world. It is probably worth noting at this point the extremely simplistic and generalist interfaces in this regard on UOL, DSO, EverDark, M59, Avalon, MUD2 etc. There is very little barrier to entry for these commercial efforts to a non-socially connected player. Logon == You have instant (if minimal) social context (Not quite so true for Avalon, but that's an implementation detail they've largely overcome thru other (interesting, impressive, and over-crafted) means(*)) NOTE: I am distinguishing here between ability to _play_ non-socially connected, and the ability to understand and learn about the world non-socially connected. Solo quests, tasks, and puzzles are one thing. Understanding the game world without being able to locate another human to ask about it is another. If you are new, and have not met other players within the world, then your ability to progress and learn is hampered. Conversely of course, if you are experienced, you are at an advantage to the extent that you have an association of friends and the like to support and forward you and whose group understanding you can draw on and support for your own intellectual assult on the game-world. This also creates an interesting side-effect value for perma-death. If you character perma-dies then you lose all the social systems and context which that character had. You still know of the existance of those structures and people, but you have no idea who and where they are, or any real way to causitively locate them. Perma-death suddenly becomes an almost catastrophic occurance -- you lose a lot more than just your character. Aside: An interesting side effect of this removal of WHO and global namespace is that it implicitly encourages the creation of cliques, exclusive societies, and other "us vs the rest" social forms. It tends to inculcate FWLIW this is my main complaint against the current clan and guild system on most current MUDs. They appear and function as bolt-ons: extra, externally enforced, social constructs which are imposed on the social world in an attempt to foster a deemed desirable predetermined structure, which very little else in the world directly implicate or actually requires the existanfce of clans or guilds. To put it another way: IRL clans and guilds exist for a reason. There are forces, physical universe survival threatening forces which clans and guilds are an attempt to contain and increase survival in the face of. Putting clans and guilds into a world where such forces don't exist, or where clans and guilds are not an implicitly requisite answer grates. (*) Avalon has a very extensive (over-extensive?) system of guides which lead new players about the world, showing them how the world operates, many of its base mechanics, and suggesting how the player might take social advantage of the various possibilities. Is lack of a social context for new players a Bad Thing? There are ways to work around much of the initial barrier to entry to the non-social world problem (cf Avalon's guides), however that doesn't address the problems of entering the social world, or the question of social context. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net (Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net ---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc#cup,hp.com ...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01467" HREF="msg01467.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> caliban#darklock,com (Caliban Tiresias Darklock)</li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01369" HREF="msg01369.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01425.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01427.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01369.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01467.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01426"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01426"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01309" HREF="msg01309.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Sat 20 Sep 1997, 05:51 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01305" HREF="msg01305.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sat 20 Sep 1997, 00:04 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01359" HREF="msg01359.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></strong>, Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Mon 22 Sep 1997, 10:49 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01369" HREF="msg01369.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again)</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Mon 22 Sep 1997, 22:31 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01426" HREF="msg01426.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 24 Sep 1997, 22:44 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01467" HREF="msg01467.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Fri 26 Sep 1997, 00:12 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01480" HREF="msg01480.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</A></strong>, Miroslav Silovic <a href="mailto:silovic#mare,zesoi.fer.hr">silovic#mare,zesoi.fer.hr</a>, Fri 26 Sep 1997, 08:45 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01545" HREF="msg01545.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Stranger in a Strange Land (was Usability and interface and who the hell is supposed to be playing, anyway? (Was: PK Again))</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 30 Sep 1997, 19:01 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01438" HREF="msg01438.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface and who the hell is suppo</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Thu 25 Sep 1997, 17:17 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>