<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features --> <!--X-From-R13: pynjerapNphc.uc.pbz --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:51:01 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199708190049.RAA26982#xsvr3,cup.hp.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 3.0.2.32.19970815165040.00b4acd0#mail,tenetwork.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00659.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00661.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00617.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00668.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00660">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00660">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00660">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</A></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 18 Aug 97 17:31:13 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:claw#null,net">claw#null,net</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> In <<A HREF="msg00617.html">3.0.2.32.19970815165040.00b4acd0#mail,tenetwork.com</A>>, on 08/15/97 at 04:51 PM, Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com> said: >At 04:16 PM 8/15/97 PST8PDT, JCL wrote: >>My explicit hope would be that the justice system would degrade to a >>case of verdict by biggest bully or last character left alive, with >>both cases encouraging the accused to define that condition. >Thsi is demcoracy ALA Gilbert and Sullivan's "Trial by Jury". Wonderful! I had suspected I was the only G&S fan aboard. >Funyn as hell but im not so sure its a workable system to build a >society on. As I recall, which isn't terribly well having never been called or served, Island's justice system was an equivalent farce. It didn't work. It wasn't intended to work. It was meant as an object of amusement and equivalence. Among other things it provided a vehicle for the minor actors to attempt to pull down a major (and occassionally do it). The difference is implicit in one of Raph's comments: you're going to get the society no matter what. Its implicit. You *can't* avoid getting a society of users. The trick is to give that society and culture formative structures that encourage the sort of cultural forms you prefer. The other trick of course is to get a large enough user base that to actually viably form a society. I suspect that the real argument here is the extent that the game machanics form part of your interaction with the game. As you, Jaimie, Caliban, and several other of the immersive/hardline/whatever RP'ers have commented, the actual mechanics of the game form variously little of your game experience. The game instead exists as a sort of shared fantasy for which the game mechanics are used (almost?) merely as incidental supports. Your stated difference in the manner in which an RP'er would handle bugs as vs a GOP'er illuminates this well -- the old DIKU gold coins bug would probably for an ideal example in point (DIKUE used to let you drop any number of coins as long as you had some coins, and then pick up the number you dropped): > i You have 50 coins. > drop 10000 coins Okay. > get coins You get 10000 coins. As I understand it, an RP'er might know that he could exploit the bug to gain infinite wealth, but wouldn't as that wasn't the purpose of his game, and would remove the immersive aspect of the RP, which was the purpose of his game. The GOP'er of course may or may not report the bug, but sure as hell would be tempted to take advantage of it as it does define advancement toward his goal. The same difference I think holds true in the societies formed (or expected to be formed) within the game. The RP'er (for wont of a better term) expects to import a socieity, or to pre-form a mental image of a society (book, game model, scenario, WoD, WoT, etc) and enact it within the game constructs (syntactic difference). The GOP'er conversely doesn't expect a society, but finds that he implicitly creates one due to his very interactions within the game. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net (Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net ---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc#cup,hp.com ...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01068" HREF="msg01068.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Martin Keegan <martin#cam,sri.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00668" HREF="msg00668.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00617" HREF="msg00617.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00659.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00661.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] C&C and Event Rescheduling</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00617.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00668.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00660"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00660"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00659" HREF="msg00659.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 19 Aug 1997, 00:31 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00596" HREF="msg00596.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Fri 15 Aug 1997, 06:23 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00616" HREF="msg00616.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Fri 15 Aug 1997, 23:09 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00617" HREF="msg00617.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Fri 15 Aug 1997, 23:48 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00660" HREF="msg00660.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 19 Aug 1997, 00:51 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00668" HREF="msg00668.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Tue 19 Aug 1997, 05:44 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00683" HREF="msg00683.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 20 Aug 1997, 00:53 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00691" HREF="msg00691.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 20 Aug 1997, 05:19 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00751" HREF="msg00751.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 27 Aug 1997, 00:31 GMT </LI> </LI> </LI> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>