<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Balance of Character Power --> <!--X-From-R13: "Xba O. Znzoreg" <wyflfvapNvk.argpbz.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:05:23 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199709281905.OAA03232@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 01BCC8FE.3BB11280.caliban#darklock,com --> <!--X-Reference: Pine.GSO.3.95q.970925081204.3199A-100000@uhunix2 --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Balance of Character Power</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01521.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01523.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01552.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01510.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01522">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01522">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01522">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Balance of Character Power</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Balance of Character Power</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Jon A. Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:06:25 -4</LI> <LI><em>Comments</em>: Authenticated sender is <jlsysinc#popd,ix.netcom.com></LI> <LI><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On 25 Sep 97 at 11:42, Nathan Yospe wrote: > On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote: > :There are vastly different power levels in the game. I may be walking > :around with some decent armor and a hefty weapon, but some other guy will > :have no armor or weaponry at all, and someone else may be wearing all but > :impregnable armor and some vastly damaging weapon that ignores all physical > :armor worn by the opponent. If I can take twelve sword hits on average, and > :that weapon does as much damage as *twenty* sword hits on the average, it's > :a one shot. Even without any weaponry, if he's significantly stronger and > :faster and more skilled than I am, he's going to win. Period. > > Sounds like a game balance/design problem. Would it be such a problem if > these LP/Dikuisms were not present? (And they ARE LP/Dikuisms, make no > mistake. Presenting a balanced(?) system: Characters, NPCs and Critters have a species/race maximum of hit points. Bear with me on the abstract notion of total hit points for a moment. They might be split locationally (limb-based) or subdivided into damage categories (concussion/blood points). A human character starts the game with the average racial hit points of 60. The maximum that can be attained is around 120. This is "maxing out" is achieved through premier body conditioning and highest stats (constitution/stamina perhaps). Your average adult bear would be around 110 hit points while your average adult elephant would be around 400 hit points. Hit points are a function of size, species, maturity, stamina and conditioning and is not keyed to "level". Size and species are relatively fixed for player characters since they are implicitly chosen at create time. Stamina and constitution flunctuates primarily via maturity (time and age). This leaves body conditioning as the primary means of character control over development and is a skill that is trained and perhaps related to other skills in a category. Gymnastics, swimming, etc. Players may develop in these areas thus indirectly increasing their hit points or may develop them directly via a body development skill. Players have fixed amount of development points with which they can spend on training. So in order to specialize or max out hit points they must do so at the expense of weapons/defensive skills, spell skills, other general skills, etc. Still they can never exceed the max racial values. But hit points alone still cannot save you. :) Now on to armor and equipment. There are 20 fixed armor types, in a modern or SF game these may be extended due to different levels of technology. I won't address these yet, since I'm currently only concerned with ancient/medieval types of armor. These armor types range from unarmed to fully plate armored head to toe. Each weapon, attack spell, natural attack form, etc. is cross indexed to these 20 armor types giving a variable range of possible damages. Eg. A broadsword will do from 0-30 points of damage on an unarmored foe, while on a fully plate armored foe it does from 0-8. Higher ranges of damage are achieved through higher weapon skills and mitigated by foe's natural quickness and higher defensive skills. The damage is still a random range yet influence probabilistically by differeing skill levels. Into this mix of "likely" outcomes a system of critical hits and fumbles is overlaid also keyed to armor types and weapon/attack types. This allows Bubba the incredible talented and experience warrior (read 100th level if you like) using the above broadsword a 3% chance of fumble with embarassing results and an odd chance of weapon breakages, etc. Joe newbie (read 1st level) with little skills has about a .025% chance or (1 in 4000) of decapitating Bubba outright (if I calculate right) and higher chances of less severe but damaging results. Bubba's chances of decapitating Joe newbie outright are about .1% or (1 in 1000). These are of course the system extremes, yet they show BALANCE even at the extremes of min/maxing development. This is I think a key point in combat balance. Give David a chance against Goliath no matter what the odds. I don't see David EVER defeating Goliath in a vanilla DIKU mud nor do I see it happening in basic D&D rpg. I remember calculating the odds for a 1st level vs. 20th level warriors and it was around 1 in 15000 for the 1st level to win. D&D and Diku being battles of hit point attrition rather than amazing one time lucky shots. Throw firearms into the mix above and the power differences become even less pronounced. For instance in the system I use, while not within my current mud's theme, an AK47 can inflict 140 points a damage per shot on an unarmored opponent not counting the chance and severity of critical hits. So any character could be downed outright around 5% of the time regardless of skill level. Firearms, grenades, etc. are far greater equalizers of power than fists and swords. This balance extends to the magic system. Magical ehancements to weapons/armor/equipment typically range from 1% to 25% offensive and defensive bonuses. 25% percent enhancement to a given use would be considered an incredibly powerful and expensive item, most likely a unique one. As such, this percentage modifier is not so overpowering that it cannot be mitigated by a skilled player character. Thus the role of equipment is less one of POWER but more of situational utility. This is another topic which I could delve into great detail as well as magical power. What I really want to show is the native or raw balance of power between characters irregardless of magical equipment and magic systems. Now do players want a balanced or realistic combat system? Methinks many really don't. :) As combat results approach "realistic" outcomes the power difference between experienced and in-experienced players is lessened. Therefore the combat game becomes less attractive as a risk-free pursuit. My theory in a nutshell: Balance and realism are anathema to a Solo/HacknSlash style game. Solo/HacknSlash games will eventually approach Monty Haul (imbalance) as players "win" the game and implementors must implement new challenges to hold "winning" players interest. The designer has two choices, make the power curve 'slow and long' or 'fast and short'. Or better yet implement a totally different type of game. One that can't be "won". -- Jon A. Lambert If I'd known it was harmless, I would have killed it myself. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01421" HREF="msg01421.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></LI></UL></LI> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01445" HREF="msg01445.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Nathan Yospe <yospe#hawaii,edu></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01521.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01523.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] UI Issues: Anti-scripting techniques</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01552.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01510.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01522"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01522"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01505" HREF="msg01505.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 27 Sep 1997, 07:36 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01544" HREF="msg01544.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 30 Sep 1997, 18:36 GMT </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01478" HREF="msg01478.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Broly <a href="mailto:gunther#online1,magnus1.com">gunther#online1,magnus1.com</a>, Fri 26 Sep 1997, 07:46 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01552" HREF="msg01552.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 01 Oct 1997, 01:31 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01522" HREF="msg01522.html">Balance of Character Power</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sun 28 Sep 1997, 19:05 GMT </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01510" HREF="msg01510.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Sat 27 Sep 1997, 19:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01512" HREF="msg01512.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sat 27 Sep 1997, 20:32 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01422" HREF="msg01422.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 24 Sep 1997, 20:01 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01501" HREF="msg01501.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Usability and interface</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com">nightfall#user2,inficad.com</a>, Sat 27 Sep 1997, 00:57 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>