<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design --> <!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNhaqre.rate.ftv.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:49:09 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199810162046.NAA37368#under,engr.sgi.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 9c7971ef.3626a903#aol,com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00230.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00232.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00221.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00232.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00231">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00231">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00231">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:46:53 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:01:39 EDT ApplePiMan <ApplePiMan#aol,com> wrote: > At 10/15/98 5:43 PM J C Lawrence (claw#under,engr.sgi.com) altered > the fabric of reality by uttering: >> ApplePiMan <ApplePiMan#aol,com> wrote: >>> At 10/13/98 4:44 AM mud-dev#kanga,nu (claw#under,engr.sgi.com) >>> altered the fabric of reality by uttering: >> You're not just restricted to writing on paper, but you can >> program, create, and actually define the base laws and modes of >> operation of TV, radio, RADAR, telepathy, sign language(s), the >> WWW, email, NetNews, etc etc etc yada yada, _and_ automate and >> interate all of that. In essence you can play God with the very >> medium that is used for communication rather than being >> restricted to merely creating instances of communication. > Thanks! I'm with you now. > What's your target market for such a creation? Is the "play[ing] > God with the very medium that is used for communication" a > requirement for being a citizen of the world (or at least, for > getting the most enjoyment from citizenship), or just something > those with such an inclination *may* do? The latter. Much like RL, a small percentage will actually go an do anything notable there. A slightly larger yet still small percentage will extend and aggregate intersting net things about those new creations. The vast rest of the great unwashed will then use those new products -- which is precisely what has happened on LambdaMOO. > It seems to me there > would be a very steep learning curve that many might not care to > undertake for something that is supposed to be a leisurely > occupation. Witness the small percentage of folks who undertake > such things as those in your list in the "real" world, and then > extrapolate how many you think would care to do them in our > created microcosms (the number should be somewhat higher, but I'm > not convinced it would encompass the majority -- in fact, I'm not > sure I'd be in their number if it entailed learning yet another > language). Not many. It doesn't take or need many. A few will do -- the rest ride their coattails. >> (Perl has largely accomplished the same feat thru its language >> features, CPAN, and other such culural pivots) > Still, how many folks who don't breathe our rarified air are > _really_ capable of learning to fluently express themselves in > Perl (I can't speak to LambdaMOO's language as I'm not [yet] > familiar with it), much less will take the effort to do so "just" > to play a "game"? No, you're missing the point. The idea is not that everyone will use those reality editing features, just that they *can*, and that a small percentage *will*. You don't need very many Edison's per capita of general population. You do need at least one however. > I'm not in any sense implying there isn't a market for such a > thing (in fact I think it would gain a *very* vocal niche very > quickly), just wondering if there's some way to broaden the market > without insulting the intelligence of the existing market... cf LambdaMOO. > Agreed. But, again, is there an implementation palatable to both > the geek and the technophobe? How do you break down the entry > barriers so your (average) players won't take a look and decide > that growing things is not more trouble than it's worth? A few > people, those who would, as in your example, go and create their > own worlds, will go to the trouble no matter what; but is there a > way to get your average Bubba and Sally Jo in on the fun? A > solution that could be carried over to the mass market (who > generally can't, or won't go to the trouble to, program their own > VCRs) would be ideal. Dunno. The hope is that it feeds on itself. The early adopter s enclude enough hackers that they create features that are leveraged by the later adopters to create new things ad infinitum. > Again, how many do you think will go to the effort? And won't the > ones who won't go to the effort (rightly or wrongly) complain as > much about the way the ones that *do* go to the trouble implement > the world as they would have a world completely of our own > invention? Absolutely. This is not only guaranteed, it is necessary and desirable. They are emotive, which means that there is a sense of attachment and value. They can also, should they be sufficiently motivated, step up and "do it right" any time they wish. Players will complain. This is a given. The world with complaint free players is farcical utopia that logically can't exist. If you have a player complaining about something that means that there is something they like and value there which they would like to appreciate and value even more. Translation: They've taken the bait and swallowed the hook. Your only question is wether you need to set the hook or not. > The very expressiveness of the English language is also > responsible, to a large degree, for many of the misunderstandings > between people supposedly speaking the same language. An example > that springs immediately to mind is that, even though I have a > very sophisticated English-language parser (a human brain with > English as its native language), I didn't fully comprehend your > first post on this subject. The fault was not in your choice of > words or their ordering (you stated it very well, actually), but > in my lacking the context to understand the nuances. How do you > propose to have a computer do better? I don't. I'm looking to have a *world* and a mechanical model that is expressive, not a soft code language per se. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net (Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net ---------(*) Internet: claw#under,engr.sgi.com ...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00232" HREF="msg00232.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> James Wilson <jwilson#rochester,rr.com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00221" HREF="msg00221.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> ApplePiMan#aol,com</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00230.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Current Projects</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00232.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00221.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00232.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00231"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00231"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00201" HREF="msg00201.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, Richard Bartle <a href="mailto:76703.3042#compuserve,com">76703.3042#compuserve,com</a>, Wed 14 Oct 1998, 15:03 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00213" HREF="msg00213.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, ApplePiMan <a href="mailto:ApplePiMan#aol,com">ApplePiMan#aol,com</a>, Thu 15 Oct 1998, 00:07 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00220" HREF="msg00220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 15 Oct 1998, 23:17 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00221" HREF="msg00221.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, ApplePiMan <a href="mailto:ApplePiMan#aol,com">ApplePiMan#aol,com</a>, Fri 16 Oct 1998, 02:05 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00231" HREF="msg00231.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 16 Oct 1998, 20:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00232" HREF="msg00232.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, James Wilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Fri 16 Oct 1998, 22:38 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00235" HREF="msg00235.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 17 Oct 1998, 03:41 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00225" HREF="msg00225.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, manta <a href="mailto:manta#pobox,com">manta#pobox,com</a>, Fri 16 Oct 1998, 06:18 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00233" HREF="msg00233.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Laws of Online World Design</A></strong>, ApplePiMan <a href="mailto:ApplePiMan#aol,com">ApplePiMan#aol,com</a>, Sat 17 Oct 1998, 01:00 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>