<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals) --> <!--X-From-R13: Rneeva Vlehc <funqrfNzlguvptnzrf.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:51:35 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 3.0.5.32.19981023104211.00863790#mythicgames,com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: shades#mythicgames,com --> <!--X-Reference: 3.0.5.32.19981022224534.0086ca30#mythicgames,com --> <!--X-Reference: E0zWYgR-0005YU-00#mail,kanga.nu --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Communi</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:shades#mythicgames,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00396.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00398.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00394.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00412.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00397">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00397">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00397">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals) </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Darrin Hyrup <<A HREF="mailto:shades#mythicgames,com">shades#mythicgames,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:42:11 -0400</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> At 09:18 PM 10/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:45:34 -0400 >Darrin Hyrup<shades#mythicgames,com> wrote: > >> IMO, one of the main sufferings of softcode heavy muds is that they >> use the internal language for too much. It slows down the server >> and takes up a lot of CPU, cutting down the number of users one can >> support and adding delays/lag. > >This is a myth originated by partially competant authors and users of >softcode servers. It is a very long way from the truth. Go have a >look at properly (ie efficiently) constructed and written softcode >based MUDs (ColdX and BatMUD are good starters). Also look at the >(very few) stats available from Marcus Ranum It depends on what you're comparing, where, and how you're comparing it. > Note: Some statistics for ColdX were posted to this list quite some >time back by either Brandon Gillespie or Miro. There are also a few >quoted messages from Marcus in the archives. > >Want the truth? Well written softcode servers are entirely capable of >outperforming moderately well written hardcoded servers. Hmm... I disagree. Take, for example, Chris Grey's posts about the efficiency of his mud language. Its the fastest I've seen, and its still 12x slower than native code. Now, that's not a problem when you only use the softcode for things that not used so much, or when there is a small player base. But when you code your event system, I/O, and most all significant interfaces with the softcode, and you have more than a handful of users on the system, you're going to see some CPU impact vs hardcode. I'm used to systems where the operating goal is to support 1000+ simultaneous users per server without significant application induced delay. I hope you're not trying to tell me that a well written heavy softcode mud will outperform a well written hardcode mud with 1000+ simultaneous users. Softcode is nice because it allows a great deal of flexibility, with little CPU impact, but I still maintain that it should not be used for the low-level coding, nor for heavily trafficked aspects of the system. An intelligent combination of the two would be best. >> The plug-in solution allows the mud programmer a choice in how they >> wish to set their system up. If they wish, they can code more in >> the internal language, or they can use existing mud-code, or use >> pre-compiled plugins (or create their own) for speed. That way >> neither flexibility nor efficiency are sacrificed, and the server >> remains as simple and slim as possible. > >Such modular systems require what is essence is a message passing >system for the communication between modules. It can be difficult >(witness the Mach micro-kernel) to ensure that the message passing >overhead does not become a significant fraction of the total >processing effort. This will be especially difficult as the number of >boundary crossings (inter-module) for a modular plug0in-style server >will be difficult to keep low. Oh, no doubt. Seems like a great design challenge to me. Best, Darrin </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00412" HREF="msg00412.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Jon Leonard <jleonard#divcom,slimy.com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00373" HREF="msg00373.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Darrin Hyrup <shades#mythicgames,com></LI></UL></LI> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00387" HREF="msg00387.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> J C Lawrence <claw#kanga,nu></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00396.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00398.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud thread summary</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00394.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00412.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00397"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00397"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00372" HREF="msg00372.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Felix A. Croes <a href="mailto:felix#dworkin,nl">felix#dworkin,nl</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 01:31 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00373" HREF="msg00373.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Darrin Hyrup <a href="mailto:shades#mythicgames,com">shades#mythicgames,com</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 02:32 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00387" HREF="msg00387.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 04:18 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00394" HREF="msg00394.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Petri Virkkula <a href="mailto:pvirkkul#iki,fi">pvirkkul#iki,fi</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 12:37 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00397" HREF="msg00397.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Darrin Hyrup <a href="mailto:shades#mythicgames,com">shades#mythicgames,com</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 14:51 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00412" HREF="msg00412.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Jon Leonard <a href="mailto:jleonard#divcom,slimy.com">jleonard#divcom,slimy.com</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 20:18 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00375" HREF="msg00375.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 02:52 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00380" HREF="msg00380.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 03:41 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00388" HREF="msg00388.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PDMud (was Re: Bruce Sterling on Virtual Community goals)</A></strong>, Niklas Elmqvist <a href="mailto:d97elm#dtek,chalmers.se">d97elm#dtek,chalmers.se</a>, Fri 23 Oct 1998, 07:35 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>