<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list --> <!--X-From-R13: fvybivpNfepr.ue ([vebfyni Evybivp) --> <!--X-Date: from major.globecomm.net [207.51.48.5] by mx01.ca.us.ibm.net id 864207662.58196-1 Wed May 21 09:41:02 1997 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199705210941.LAA00172#regoc,srce.hr --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199705210100.SAA11765#xsvr3,cup.hp.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:silovic#srce,hr"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00655.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00657.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00641.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00674.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00656">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00656">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00656">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:silovic#srce,hr">silovic#srce,hr</A> (Miroslav Silovic)</LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:41:09 +0200 (MET DST)</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> > In <<A HREF="msg00575.html">199705190115.DAA06158#regoc,srce.hr</A>>, on 05/18/97 > at 06:19 PM, silovic#srce,hr (Miroslav Silovic) said: > > <snip> > > Tho I haven't cleaned up the details, the presentation I have in mind > is very much that the shared reality experienced in the MUD is a > physical construct resulting purely from the mutual mental actions of > the players. Probably this will be presented in much the manner of > (all) the players being once near-omnipitent (demi-)gods who were > mutually responsible for the initial creation of the universe, but are > now much descended from their former stature and power and > concomittantly bereft of much of their memory. > > See! User-programming is perfectly in character. I don't see it: If I were god, I'd change the world by something that starts with 'let there be *', not by something that starts with @create blah. :) Changing the reality is not the same operation as programming, since the former happens inside the game universe, while the latter happens in Real World. In other words, ordering the reality to change is a game system operation. But implementing the change is event outside the game. > >The similar example: causing commands that failed because of typos to > >have IC consequences (for instance, typing 'west', when there is no > >exit to west, should produce an error, because while player didn't > >know that there is no exit, character certainly did know that. > > Again this comes back to the question of distinction I posed a couple > days ago (which got very little feedback). Are you the human merely a > background mentor for the character in the MUD, or is the character in > the MUD merely a proxy for you the human (along with whatever personae > etc you wish to assume)? Using words 'proxy' and 'personae' together in the context above is not self-consistant. :) > If you take the former view, then yes, walking into the wall is both > surprising and probably unacceptable. If you take the later view > (which I prefer) then walking into the wall is not only preferable, > but not walking into the wall breaks the logical consistancy of the > world. Errr, uhhhh, you just said that for you, there is no difference between IC and OOC. The fact that you use the two terms in the same article as the above is the logical contradiction (since mentioning 'in-character' means that character has its own existance, which human merely empowers). Of course, choosing 'not to break the logical consistancy' in this case also means irritating the players to no end (example: you type north 6-7 times, lag, loose count, and then try to go east. *WHAM!*) To my worldview, characters don't bang their heads into the wall when they try walking, period. The alternative does not contribute to anything, but detracts from playability. Since your dillema was posed as a question, here's my take at the answer: If player is assumed to be on the MUD as himself, then the MUD is a strategy game. The only way to consider MUD a roleplaying game, IMHO, is to assume that player merely gives guidance to the independantly existing character. Since you stated that you never do playing but do mostly coding (correct if I misremembered), I can tell you that the experince is very hard to describe to somebody who never played a high-impact scene. With practice, you learn to build a 'sub-persona' in your mind, and shift gears to it while playing him or her (this is what I do and what most RPers I know do). Splitting one's mind and then watching over your character's shoulder is the most important source of fun for both RPers and actors. But in your view of MUDding, this never happens. Opening separate topic: Many times, *very* clever ideas that while on the drawing board lead to great immersive RPing experience, also lead to a MU* that won't survive its first year. For example, GOHS MUSH had *great* world design, livid economy, detailed character creation, and a starting base od dedicated players. It had no means of out-of-character communication, thereby forcing the players to meet only on IC grounds. It died because of it. The reason is that players /needed/ un-immersive communication to talk to each other, planning things, and basically creating something that could be call 'accelerated coincidence'. Miro </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00688" HREF="msg00688.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> clawrenc#cup,hp.com</li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00674" HREF="msg00674.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00641" HREF="msg00641.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> clawrenc#cup,hp.com</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00655.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Administrative notes</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00657.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00641.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00674.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00656"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00656"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00162" HREF="msg00162.html">Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Sun 20 Apr 1997, 02:29 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00550" HREF="msg00550.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Sun 18 May 1997, 07:17 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00575" HREF="msg00575.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, Miroslav Silovic <a href="mailto:silovic#srce,hr">silovic#srce,hr</a>, Mon 19 May 1997, 08:08 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00641" HREF="msg00641.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 21 May 1997, 08:02 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00656" HREF="msg00656.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, Miroslav Silovic <a href="mailto:silovic#srce,hr">silovic#srce,hr</a>, Wed 21 May 1997, 16:41 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00674" HREF="msg00674.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 22 May 1997, 01:07 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00700" HREF="msg00700.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Fri 23 May 1997, 05:53 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00706" HREF="msg00706.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Fri 23 May 1997, 11:37 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00719" HREF="msg00719.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Issues from the digests and Wout's list</A></strong>, Miroslav Silovic <a href="mailto:silovic#srce,hr">silovic#srce,hr</a>, Fri 23 May 1997, 20:34 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>