<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Heroes --> <!--X-From-R13: @nguna Kbfcr <lbfcrNunjnvv.rqh> --> <!--X-Date: from fabius.globecomm.net [207.51.48.6] by in3.ibm.net id 866866352.47364-1 Sat Jun 21 04:12:32 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.GSO.3.95q.970620175146.7692D-100000@uhunix2 --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 3.0.2.32.19970619233333.00c59a38#mail,tenetwork.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Heroes</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01399.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01401.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01377.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01405.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01400">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01400">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01400">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Heroes</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Heroes</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Nathan Yospe <<A HREF="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:12:12 -1000</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Jeff Kesselman wrote: :At 08:39 PM 6/19/97 PST8PDT, Nathan wrote: : :>:Part of your mistake ofcourse is that you are treatign AD&D characters as :>:normal peopel. Theya re not, at high levels they are epic heros. :> :>Which is rather odd. A world with a hundred epic heroes running around all :>the time... bleah. AD&D does not translate well to muds. : :Ahah. Now THIS is an interestign issue and oft not well addressed. : :The goal of the adventure gamer is to be a hero. How do yo usupport a world :full of geros? An interestign design topic... Well, if you actually insist on doing it (and, to a degree, I do as well), there are three options I can think of right off the bat: 1] Reusable plotcasting - this is the motive for my split universe quest engine. You get to be the hero of the scenario, and remembered for it. In your own private universe. And you still interact with others... the set of minor differences each time through the region mean that noone will realize that the hero of Cambul actually destroyed essentially the same complex as the butcher of Rhieasal. There is a call for this sort of thing. Of course, players won't get these sort of distinctions often, and lose most characters in the effort, making the victory sweeter. This lets the older players feel like they belong to a "hero's fraternity", and the younger players feel like they have something (heroism) to strive for. 2] Overwhelming admin driven NPCs to play the non heroic roles, and convince the PCs that they are (even early on) heroes. This strikes me as futile. There is a point in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" in which the main character is in his morality class in high school, and the teacher confronts him on the meaning (and falseness) of "The best things in life are free". This impacts here (mainly because Troopers, along with Cobra and Armor, are major influences on Sing2. That, and a bit of the heroism of Star Wars for spice... but mainly the utter brutality and senselessness of Troopers and Armor. I'm trying to teach the players something, you see. Several somethings. A bit of physics, a bit of social engineering, a bit of real life. As such, I want them to scrap for every bit of glory they earn, until it becomes trully precious... and then they get dropped into the middle of an enemy civilian populace, one that has never seen war, with an order to kill. And I repeat this until it is drummed in deep. I LIKE yanking emotional strings, hard. So option 2 is out. People cannot really learn to be heroes, unless they have paid in blood and sweat and tears. 3] Keep the numbers low. Cycle three games, with their "generations" of heroes, so that each set of heroes bonds into aligned teams, just in time to take a new generation, percieved seperate, under their wing. Cycle it on a rate of three days per recruitment drive per game. A week difference between the youngest of a generation and the oldest of the next should be enough. Muds run fast. So you end up with the established heroes, about to go to the next plain, and the ones before them, already demigods, and between these and the newbies, say seven layers of heroism. The local heroes, the state heroes, the national heroes, the global heroes, the heroes of the solar system, the heroes of the galaxy... using a sci-fi basis, of course. Anyway, its a start. __ _ __ _ _ , , , , /_ / / ) /_ /_) / ) /| /| / /\ First Light of a Nova Dawn / / / \ /_ /_) / \ /-|/ |/ /_/ Final Night of a World Gone Nathan F. Yospe - University of Hawaii Dept of Physics - yospe#hawaii,edu </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01377" HREF="msg01377.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01399.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01401.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do OWLs...</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01377.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01405.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01400"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01400"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01361" HREF="msg01361.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Nathan Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 01:50 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01376" HREF="msg01376.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 13:28 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01401" HREF="msg01401.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do OWLs...</A></strong>, Nathan Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Sat 21 Jun 1997, 11:20 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01377" HREF="msg01377.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 13:31 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01400" HREF="msg01400.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Heroes</A></strong>, Nathan Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Sat 21 Jun 1997, 11:12 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01405" HREF="msg01405.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sat 21 Jun 1997, 17:07 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01498" HREF="msg01498.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 26 Jun 1997, 02:23 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01359" HREF="msg01359.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Alex Oren <a href="mailto:alexo#bigfoot,com">alexo#bigfoot,com</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 00:27 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01382" HREF="msg01382.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Fri 20 Jun 1997, 15:55 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>