<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life --> <!--X-From-R13: pynjerapNphc.uc.pbz --> <!--X-Date: from scipio.globecomm.net [207.51.48.12] by in1.ibm.net id 865459130.189162-1 Wed Jun 4 21:18:50 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199706042116.OAA06768#xsvr3,cup.hp.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 3.0.32.19970603121202.009dd228#mail,tenetwork.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01154.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01156.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01136.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01112.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01155">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01155">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01155">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</A></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 04 Jun 97 11:13:14 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:claw#null,net">claw#null,net</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> In <<A HREF="msg01111.html">3.0.32.19970603121202.009dd228#mail,tenetwork.com</A>>, on 06/03/97 at 07:17 PM, Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com> said: >Marian's summation is something i agree with strongly and why I keep >harping on "define your game". But in the above exampel you HAVENT >defined your game. You've only defined your agme world. The game a >bunch of adult roleplayers will PLAY in that world is totally >different and has totally different ASSUMED RULES (important concept, >the "social contract") then the one a bunch of serious Pkillers wil >play. You need to define not what the players can expect of your >world setting (though that is helpful for Roleplayers to undertsnad >what kinds of characters fit) but what your GAME EXPECTS OF THE >PLAYERS. I take a minor view of this. I expect to define the game world. I don't intend to define what the game expects of the players. It is up to them to take what advantage they wish of the game world, and to define what goals they wish within the game world. That's not my job. I give them a system to play with, not a set of behavioural expectations. The players do have a minor expectation to construct an environment within the game that I as owner find enjoyable. Should they not, they can expect the game to be removed. Should they come up with something unexpectedly enjoyable, its more likely for the game to persist. >Without this you have the problems and hurt feelings Marian >referenced. Players will generate certain internal and often tacit expectations of the community of players in a game, will attempt to engender those same expectations in new players, and will attempt to enforce them on those that don't conform. Equally often they are not aware of the assumptions they have made in this area, but instead operate on some form of automatic and unexamined equation of "what is right and/or proper" or "that's the way it is." They also tend to become upset when a player without that matrix comes along and deliberately flaunts their expectations or bull-baits them by deliberately manipulating their expectations (frothing frenzy). I'll go out on a limb here: In the general case I not only consider that perfectly acceptable behaviour, but in the minor case desirable behaviour. I may not like the irritating player, or even the upsets he is creating. Most of the time I really dislike him and his actions. However I value him as a social predator whose actions force the mock society he is preying upon to react and adapt itself to suit.(*) Predators are incredibly valuable to any organism, and the societies in MUD are no exceptions there. (*) From this you may garner why Herbert's "God Emporor of Dune" was my far out favourite of the series. >If you expect it to be a player-kills-player world, you need that >upfront. if you exptec it to be a cooperative roleplay envrionment, >you need to say THAT. If I expect the players to comport themselves using a minor set of the full functionality offered by the game, and to thereby willingly restrict themselves to that more narrow (if deeper) realm, then that needs to be stated, restated, and spelled out in unequivicable terms. If conversely I do not place any of those restrictions or expectations, but instead leave it to their own determination or anarchy its a different matter. One side requires the players to abide within pre-drawn fences. Quite obviously the fences need to be drawn. The other side has no fences. You can state that there are no fences if you wish, or let the players find that out for themselves. >Because roleplayers play with respect for each others characters and >stories and do not intentionally impinge on them or take control >away. Pkilling as a regular thing does take control away. Neither is >right or wrong, btu they are imcompatable game models. >We've gone over this so many times I'm having trouble figuring out >what we are doing wrong in explaining this. Can someone maybe assist? I think what you are missing here is that there is not full agreement on what RP consists of among the list members. You take close to a story-telling definition if not quite. Jaime goes much further than you taking an almost pure story approach (cf commen on the cliif success dice roll handling). Caliban seems to take a looser definition than you where characters are actors and the plot is not pre-set and the story evolves accidentally (eg silly non-heroic deaths are both possible and expected). Adam and Nathan appear to take an even looser definition where RP defines means and motive for a character, but there are few to no pre-requisities for cooperative action among the players, its much more of an organic happenstance. Its even been argued here that my character manipulations where I deliberately con and manipulate other players into thinking I (the character's player) am someone other than me, or of a different character than I have, is a low order form of RP. There is a spectrum of RP from Jaime's deep end on out. (I actually really doubt that its a single-dimensioned range) You are attempting to set a single definition and apply that to the entire range of RP. Its not going to work. One size does not fit all, and thus you are not getting agreement. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net (Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net ---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc#cup,hp.com ...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01111" HREF="msg01111.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01154.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01156.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01136.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01112.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01155"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01155"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01161" HREF="msg01161.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 05 Jun 1997, 06:51 GMT </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01105" HREF="msg01105.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 01:23 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01111" HREF="msg01111.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 02:09 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01136" HREF="msg01136.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 11:29 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01155" HREF="msg01155.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 05 Jun 1997, 04:18 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01112" HREF="msg01112.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 02:46 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01147" HREF="msg01147.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 20:47 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01204" HREF="msg01204.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Nathan Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Wed 07 Jan 1970, 06:09 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01232" HREF="msg01232.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Fri 06 Jun 1997, 19:04 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>