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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Adam Wiggins <<A HREF="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:42:25 -0700 (MST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</A></LI>
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<PRE>
[JK:]
> [Adam W:]
> >[JK:]
> >> Reasonably mature players generally DON'T want to hurt the other player...
> >
> >You're confused between 'player' and 'character'. The statement
> >above is correct, but has nothing to do with the game.
> >
> >If I kill you in order to 'hurt' you as a player, I'm not playing the
> >game - I'm bringing in outside stuff which is beyond the scope of the game.
>
> No, Im not confusing it. Tehse players Im referring to not only DO
> confusse it though, they don't even HAVE this concept in their vocabulary.
> They do not roleplay, they play the game like they were playing chess....
>
> And if I played chass i nsuch a way as to destroy your chess peices (and
> its your set), I AM hurting YOU, no?
I agree completely. Trying to play chess by breaking the pieces is both
out of the context of the game and pointless. This would qualify as trying
to hurt the player.
Trying to hurt the character, within the context of the game, would be
more like you taking my queen with your knight. If I started moaning and
whining that I had big plans for my queen, that I was going to use her to put
your king in check within 24 moves, and that you had just ruined the game for
me, I think you'd be pretty confused. This is to what I am refering.
> >If I kill you within the context of the game and you take it personally,
> >than YOU are not playing the game correctly.
>
> **sigh** Thsi is the standard Pkilelr BS. It works 100% for Duke. It is
Duke...hmmm, is that that Doom-clone game? Sorry, it's been a long
time since I've played any of those. Course, it could have something
to do that I don't use any DOS/Windows computers, which is where all
those things seem to come out.
> totally incorrerct ina true ROLEPLAY game. It is also nonsense. i have
This is where I don't understand. If you define player-killing to be
a part of your game, then it is. If you don't then it's not. What
in the hell does that have to do with role play? I played pen and paper
RPGs before I encountered muds, and the concept of power-play was totally
foreign - as was the idea that you couldn't react to any give situation
as your character would. I've had characters die in live RPGs because my
character made a critical fumble, smacked my friend's berserker on the
forehead while we were fighting side-by-side, and he turned and annihilated
my character. Them's the breaks - I was somewhat unhappy at my sudden
demise, but I certainly didn't hold it against my friend, nor did I feel
that either he or the game had wronged me. Nor did I ever think to suggest
that we should add a rule that players couldn't hurt each other. On the
other hand, the next time he wanted to make a berserker character, I told
him that if he did there was no way in hell my character would group with
him :) (Which is, IMO, a perfectly good extension of the role-playing.
Berserkers may kick ass, but no one wants to hang around with them because
it's just too dangerous.)
> NEVER met a Pkiller who woudl accept me, with Sysop powers, just blowing
> away their charcter or taking all their items??
> Why shoudl they "take it personally" by your logic??
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here...you're saying an admin
person uses some admin-command to obliterate the character for no
reason related to role-playing? Yes, I agree, this is silly. It's
not role-playing, and it's not in the context of the game - just like
breaking someone's chess pieces. If, however, I angered a god (played
by one of the admin) and they obliterated my character, that's in the
context of the game, and no, I should not take it personally, just think
twice before angering deities in the future.
> Nowe, to treat the statement with more seriosuness them IMO it deserves...
> See the above. My character is important to me, in a way I suspect you are
> not equipoped to understand.
Please, please don't insult me. I haven't insulted you, so please do me
the kindness of keeping to statements relevant to the discussion and which
convey useful information, instead of put-downs which don't, IMO, convey
much of anything at all.
The reason I have continued to pursue this discussion despite some
evident bitterness and hostility is that I think it is an interesting and
important subject, one which rarely gets broached because the various
folks involved stick to their own camps so closely. I always keep my mouth
shut when hanging out with one group or another - both make statements
which show obvious ignorance of the other group's thoughts and motives.
This list seems an ideal place to try to examine the two camps more
closely, but this is impossible to do with vision clouded by malice.
> I am a roleplayer. The game to me is about story.
> If you kill out my character before I have had a chance to fully
> explore that story you have taken soemthing very personal and precious from
> me... like destroying the pages of a half competed Steven King novel in
> front of his face.
Ah...another good analogy. Unfortunately, there's a small problem with it
that I think is point of my argument. *When*, pray tell, is the novel
complete? Never? When you decide it's complete? When the admin
decides it's complete? I think the answer to this question probably will
tell you a lot about the kind of game you want to play - there's certainly
no 'right' answer. Personally, I believe that characters in a role-playing
game are only members of a larger, more complex world. They are 'born'
when you create them, 'live' while you play them, and die either by
bad luck or bad judgement, or more likely a combination of the two. I've
sent more than one character to certain death, both because I found it a lot
more fun to charge in on the dragon to give my friends time to escape, and
because it was in character. I've also lost characters to utter stupidity,
both my own and others. This is frustrating - but without it, the game
looses its meaning. If *every* *single* character died exactly when they
wanted to (ie, defending the town from the dragon or some other heroic
deed), these deeds loose all meaning. Every character does it, so what
makes your special?
I'm curious, then, to hear from all the hard-core role-players on the list
what they think the answer to this question is. On every MUSH I've played,
no one has complained that their character died 'before their time' or
whatever, yet Jeff seems to feel that if you die before you really want
to, the game is ruined for you? (Tell me I'm reading it wrong, but this
is what I seem to get out of your statements above.)
> Furthermoe, as a Pkiller at most all you care about is the pwoer of your
> character--
Hmmm. You seem to believe that I am *A* pkiller. That's not true; I don't
necessarily hunt people down just for the thrill of the sport (though I've
been known to do it, given the right character). I just don't believe in
restricting players from doing things in the context of the game, even if
that results in the death of another character.
>you can rebuild it.
Absolutely. It's a game, and this is what's nice about it. You're not
dead, your character is. Depending on the character this might result in
a large feeling of loss to an 'ah well, whatever'. But it's still just
a character.
>By contrast each character a roleplayer
> creates is unique.
As it should be. You seem to think that I'm not interested in creating
unique characters, for some reason? If nothing else, I dislike the
limitations on the character types imposed by modern muds (I've already
given a long-winded example of the ranger) and so seek to allow for even
more variety and strange, unique characters within my mud.
>It breaks the implicit rules of the game the ROleplayers
> play to try to recreate the character and "continue" the story.
Yes. I'm the one arguing *for* permenant death, remember?
>That story
> is over, albiet in a nasty, unstatisfying way.
Why, exactly, is it unsatisfying or nasty? If I'm playing my little thief,
and I'm finding that no one I steal from is a challange anymore, and I see
Torak the Master Swordsman sitting in the bar with a valuable gem hanging
in his belt pouch, and I try to steal it, it wouldn't suprise me to end
up without my head if I fail. If I don't want to die, then I won't try -
but this isn't very interesting, by my book. But each player can decide
this for themselves; there's no reason you couldn't be perfectly context
picking brass pieces from the pockets of passerbys in the square all day
long, with the worst reprimand you face being a swear word and a cuff on the
face.
As I understand it, you're looking for this (?):
Boffo says, 'Psst. Hey lady, wanna buy this gem? It's magical - you just
rub it and it will cause you to levitate!'
> say Hmmm...how much?
Bubba whispers to you, 'Careful, Buffy. I hear Boffo has a reputation for
pawning off ordinary gems as magical objects.'
Boffo says, 'Only four mithril marks!'
> ponder
> say Fine, then...but for your sake, it had better work.
> give 4 mithril boffo
Boffo gives you a stunning red ruby.
Boffo says, 'Enjoy!'
Boffo snickers.
Boffo heads for the door.
> rub gem
You rub the gem. Nothing seems to happen.
> say Hey! You little swindler, get back here!
Boffo says, 'Uh oh...'
> grab boffo
You reach out to grab Boffo by his collar, but then you realize that hurting
other players is cruel and bad for role-playing, so you stop.
> growl
> trip boffo
You prepare to trip Boffo, but then you realize you'd be hurting another
player by doing that.
> slap boffo
You pull back your arm to slap Boffo, but you don't want to do that!
He's a player, it would be unfair to ruin the game for him!
> It helps if you try to UNDERTSNAD the other guy ratehr then making the
> statement that anythign that doesn't agree with your own world perceptio
> nis 'wrong".
I could not agree more.
> This IS the innate problem though. Neiterh the of games of Roleplay OR PvP
> are "right" or "wrong"... they just do NOT belong together.
Hmmm. Well, maybe it's too early to tell, but I think I've quite successfully
fused them on the mud I'm working on right now. At least, I think it's
more fun than any kind of mud I've ever played, regardless of codebase.
Maybe I'm weird.
> Ill ignore the rest of your diatribe except top oitn out that you are
> giving a clasic Game-Oriented-Player POV, though as is ALSO classic you
> try to justify it with occasional references to the 'real world'.
I'm not trying to 'justify' anything at all. I'm trying to show you
another area of gaming that you're not informed about, and at the same
time perhaps glean some information from you about how you play games,
your mindset, your attitude, etc. Having spent my whole life around
role-players, and being one myself, I know that what you're presenting
here is not representative of most. But I guess that's why I find it
so intriguing...
As to the bit about the 'real world', yes - I like realistic muds. That's
no secret, to anyone who has been reading this list for the last year or
so. I like games which are logically consitant, where I can do things
which fit into the context of the game. I find that the real world is a good
model for generating an imaginary world; both from the standpoint that
it's a 100% working model, and because players will be much more familiar
with it, thus making it easier to get into and play. I find it *highly*
distracting to get messages like, "You can't do that to a player!" I'm
not saying that these have no place, anywhere, just that I don't like them,
from a role-playing standpoint.
> GAme oriented play is fine if thats what yo uwant, its just not Roleplay.
Well, this certainly wasn't ever an argument. :)
> NOW why GOPers WANT to play in a world where so much emphasis and work has
> been placed into Roleplay and emersion I haven't a clue. There are WONDERFUL
> non-roleplay envrionments for such things.. .everything from Quake to
> Diablo (which is NOT an RP game. Its Gauntlet on steriods.)
I can't think of very many single-player computer games
that WOULD qualify as role-playing games. But I think we've already
discussed this particular element. At any rate, I am not familiar with
Quake or Diablo, nor do I think I'd be interested in ever playing them based
on the descriptions I've heard of them.
> My last comment is that I've heard al lthese arguiments in the last year
> invovled in DSO... yet when we GAVE the PbvPers a PvP world where they
> coudl play THEIR game in proivacy... they weren't interested. Thsi tells
> me that a HELl of alot of the so called "PvP'ers are really Pkillers as per
> my earlier definition. Do yo uhave another explaination?
I'm confused here - are you referring to PvPers as being people who are
interested in only playing the game in order to hunt down other players?
I guess I've never met anyone who is exclusively that way, but occasionally
it is fun to play on a PK mud like Tron where you just hop into an arena
for a giant bloodbowl to womp on each other. I find this only fun in
small doses...just too limited. As to live RPGs, I can't imagine that
this would ever be fun or work at all. Player vs player fights are frequently
the most interesting combat you'll encounter in a live RPG, but they crop
up very very rarely, which is perhaps WHY they are interesting.
So in response, I guess I don't understand your question. :)
</PRE>
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<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="01070" HREF="msg01070.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="01020" HREF="msg01020.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Jeff Kesselman <jeffk#tenetwork,com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01019" HREF="msg01019.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 02:34 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01052" HREF="msg01052.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 13:55 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01118" HREF="msg01118.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 04:58 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01020" HREF="msg01020.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 02:48 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01050" HREF="msg01050.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 13:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01070" HREF="msg01070.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 04 Jan 1970, 08:16 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01149" HREF="msg01149.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 21:09 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01035" HREF="msg01035.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 06:40 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01037" HREF="msg01037.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>,
Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Mon 02 Jun 1997, 07:00 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
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</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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