<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK --> <!--X-From-R13: Oqnz Ivttvaf <avtugsnyyNhfre2.vasvpnq.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: from major.globecomm.net [207.51.48.5] by in12.ibm.net id 867130661.44262-1 Tue Jun 24 05:37:41 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199706231536.IAA29566#user2,inficad.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Marcel-1.09-0623071156-0b0Ky&5#Gryphon,knoware.nl --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01470.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01472.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01573.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01477.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01471">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01471">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01471">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Adam Wiggins <<A HREF="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com">nightfall#user2,inficad.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:36:22 -0700 (MST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> [Marian:] > Many players will be mildly upset when they're attacked 'for no reason' > by another player. In fact, the standard excuse for PK on many muds is > that it allows players to take revenge for being attacked by others. This doesn't make much sense, since if you can't attack other players in the first place, why would this be a problem? On the other hand, I know what you are referring to. This is general called 'player justice'. The main problem with muds that are hardcoded to not allow PK is that they forget all the devious little methods that players can find to basically fuck around with the others online. The Law of Jerks says that no matter what you do, you will have to deal with jerks at some point or another, so saying "I just won't let that kind of person into my game" is pretty moot if you plan to allow more than 10 people online at a time. Common examples of things you can do to other players on otherwise 'no-PK' muds: - Stealing money and/or objects. - Charming creatures and ordering them to attack players. - Charming creatures which are agressive to a given player's race and then walking into the room with them. - Charming creatures and ordering them to steal from players. - Pulling the pin on a flash grenade, dropping it on the ground, and leaving the room with other players. - Pawning off a given item as a magical artifact when actually it is a worthless piece of junk. - Tricking someone into walking off a cliff or into the lair of a dangerous monster. - Someone is good at blindfighting and in fact relies on it in order to take out very strong NPCs. Another player then happily wanders in with a lit torch saying, 'Can I watch you fight?!?' resulting in the nearly instant death of the blindfighter, since the mobile starts fighting about twice as well as soon as there is light in the room. (This is a truelife example, and there was no malice on the part of the torch-bearer, only ignorance.) And so forth. I've seen all this and more in my time on no-PK muds. Some of it I consider perfectly valid - it's just very frustrating to then be restricted as to the recourse you can take. For example, I *love* the scenario of a slimy little conman pawning a valuable-looking ring off on the big bad ogre barbarian. When the ogre finds out, she's gonna be PISSED, and would naturally give the conman a sound thrashing (well, assuming she could catch him)...except, wait, the game won't allow it! I've mentioned this one time and time again and no anti-PK person seems willing or able to answer it. My favorite, though, is when the coders try to second-guess the players. For example, they decide that players dropping grenades on other players is becoming a problem. So, they make it so that grenades dropped by players don't harm other players. Then you get *highly* amusing things like a mob dropping a grenade, a player picking it up and then dropping it, and saying, 'Okay guys, we're safe now, cause I touched it.' Thus the 'revenge' thing to which you refer is actually players being able to handle their own disputes by whatever means they see fit. Unfortunately this doesn't always work real well in systems with massively out-of-whack 'power' levels, poorly created justice systems, or other such glitches. I've seen both PK and non-PK work well and poorly. PK works poorly when there are problems with powerlevels. Non-PK works poorly when there are holes in the system which allow players to 'hurt' each other by indirect methods. Personally, I dislike limits on what I can do, and plus, I like both the roles of predator and prey quite a bit. However, I'm not always in the mood for this, and a relaxing no-PK mud is a nice break from time to time, as long as it is indeed bulletproof. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01477" HREF="msg01477.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01457" HREF="msg01457.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01470.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01472.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] common server design</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01573.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01477.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01471"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01471"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01526" HREF="msg01526.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Thu 26 Jun 1997, 14:31 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01528" HREF="msg01528.html">[MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Brandon Cline <a href="mailto:brandon#merlin,sedona.net">brandon#merlin,sedona.net</a>, Thu 26 Jun 1997, 15:22 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01553" HREF="msg01553.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Martin Keegan <a href="mailto:martin#cam,sri.com">martin#cam,sri.com</a>, Fri 27 Jun 1997, 20:02 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01573" HREF="msg01573.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sat 28 Jun 1997, 16:37 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01471" HREF="msg01471.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com">nightfall#user2,inficad.com</a>, Tue 24 Jun 1997, 12:37 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01477" HREF="msg01477.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Wed 25 Jun 1997, 03:45 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01490" HREF="msg01490.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Wed 25 Jun 1997, 15:15 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01623" HREF="msg01623.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Tue 01 Jul 1997, 07:43 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01625" HREF="msg01625.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Integrating PK</A></strong>, Jeff Kesselman <a href="mailto:jeffk#tenetwork,com">jeffk#tenetwork,com</a>, Tue 01 Jul 1997, 08:01 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>