<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD --> <!--X-From-R13: pnyvonaNqnexybpx.pbz (Qnyvona Fverfvnf Rnexybpx) --> <!--X-Date: from fabius.globecomm.net [207.51.48.6] by in3.ibm.net id 865322871.106886-1 Tue Jun 3 07:27:51 1997 CUT --> <!--X-Message-Id: 339ab63b.24702993#relay,mnsinc.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Marcel-1.09-0602194241-d07Ky&5#Gryphon,iaehv.nl --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01086.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01088.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01064.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01141.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01087">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01087">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01087">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</A> (Caliban Tiresias Darklock)</LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:29:54 GMT</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:02:32 PST8PDT, Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl> wrote: >At the moment muds strongly discourage roleplaying. And mushes strongly >discourage combat-gaming. One way to advance the field is by discussing >ways to better integrate the two types. This can be done by asking how >roleplaying can be encouraged in more traditional mud settings, which >was how this RP discussion started out. Or by asking how mushes can be >made more alive (i.e. make things happen there automatically) which is >an equally valid question. MUSHes, speaking as a relatively experienced coder, do not have the internal support for mobiles that many MUDs take for granted. They do have a much stronger support for arbitrary programming of objects, which can provide for some fascinating creations, but there is little or no combat support except what you build in. The building, however, takes three simple forms; there are commands, functions, and attributes. Once you know how these work, you can build just about anything. Online help is extensive, and commands are usually atomic. MUDs, on the other hand, lack a lot of flexibility. In order to make much of any modification to a MUD, you have to drop into the hardcode and muck around, usually breaking something. When you do go trying to modify things online in a MUD, you deal with a complex set of cryptic commands that generally bear close resemblance to the actual implementation and must be used in proper combination and sequence. On any MUD mailing list where questions are permitted, you often see exchanges that go something like this: I created a fountain in the middle of one of my areas. It doesn't load up into the game when I start the server, though. I did an oxlpt of the vnums to my qmrfs, and then a cdrflp of the smrflgn. After I assigned the aflexm, I unset the qrblnt flag and frmbldorped the horgn. What have I done wrong? You have to frmbldorp the horgn before you unset the qrblnt flag, and you forgot to hergenfleiss the libbditts. Also, is the zorfen properly configured for the shuftel? (Side note: And you wonder why most MUDs use the same areas.) This is an interface problem. As I've said before, RPers want to get to the business of playing the game. In order for a MUD admin to get areas built, he has to gain a pretty intimate familiarity with the internals of the code, hack the server itself all to hell, and spend hours on end playing with these unintuitive and mostly undocumented commands to get his areas up and working. The reset syntax for areas is a total mess and looks almost like line noise. I think there is a LOT of potential for MUDs as an RP environment. The problem is mainly that huge bunch of stuff you have to learn; it's not like gaming, it's like computer science. What this ends up meaning is that the type of person who makes a good RP-centric game designer is not generally the type of person who makes a good MUD builder, and the converse also holds. The learning curve is steep. The problem is not so much that the commands themselves are bad, but that there's too little documentation and what there is tends to be incompletely indexed. -+[caliban#darklock,com]+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- I am here to grind your eyes harder into the miasmic bile of life; to show you the truth and the beauty in the whisper of steel on silk and the crimson scent of blood as it rises to meet the caress of a blade. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+[<A HREF="http://www.darklock.com/]+-">http://www.darklock.com/]+-</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01141" HREF="msg01141.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <nightfall#inficad,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01064" HREF="msg01064.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01086.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP/PG examples</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01088.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01064.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01141.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01087"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01087"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00973" HREF="msg00973.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, clawrenc <a href="mailto:clawrenc#cup,hp.com">clawrenc#cup,hp.com</a>, Thu 01 Jan 1970, 09:45 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00990" HREF="msg00990.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Thu 01 Jan 1970, 17:40 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01011" HREF="msg01011.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Ling <a href="mailto:K.L.Lo-94#student,lut.ac.uk">K.L.Lo-94#student,lut.ac.uk</a>, Sun 01 Jun 1997, 18:26 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01064" HREF="msg01064.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Life</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 03:58 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01087" HREF="msg01087.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Tue 03 Jun 1997, 14:27 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01141" HREF="msg01141.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#inficad,com">nightfall#inficad,com</a>, Wed 04 Jun 1997, 12:04 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01181" HREF="msg01181.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 05 Jun 1997, 12:19 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="01233" HREF="msg01233.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Wed 07 Jan 1970, 22:41 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="01236" HREF="msg01236.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] RP=MUSH/PG=MUD</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Sat 07 Jun 1997, 00:43 GMT </LI> </LI> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>