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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Matt Chatterley <<A HREF="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:07:04 +0000 (GMT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:neddy#itl,net">neddy#itl,net</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Koster, Raph wrote:
> On Friday, January 09, 1998 10:43 AM, JC
> Lawrence[SMTP:claw#under,Eng.Sun.COM] wrote:
>
> > NPC's are simple -- [snip]
> > Players are more difficult.
>
> I gotta tell you all, NOTHING is simple about this. :)
Well, implementing the NPC side isn't too bad (depending what extent you
go to) - its getting the players into the 'swing of things' as you refer
to that is really hard. This is one of many things my players will have to
learn to live with, methinks- Ive already done several things that might
be deemed 'unfair'. 'balance' is a favourite player buzz-word, and the
notion that all characters should balance with respect to each other is
absurd from my point of view, and a Giant who becomes a fighter of sorts
will generally always be more powerful than a Human who does likewise (not
necessarily as skilled, but more effective at thumping things, due to
being much bigger, stronger and nastier). The style of play between the
two is different, so not everyone will want to be the Giant - this doesn't
mean the two balance out the same!
> In UO we actually had to take OUT realistic economy sim aspects
> because they weren't fun. :P Shops being overstocked and not paying
> for player goods, shops going bankrupt from failure to compete with
> players, players going bankrupt from failure to compete with shops...
> and on and on and on. Every tiny change sent massive tremors though
> the entire game. We're at the point now where it's a lot less
> realistic, but kinda works, and sort of moves along.
Heh. I think this is to do with sensitivity of the system - if its
oversensitive, its too realistic as you say and not so much fun (SimCity
was a good sim, but how realistic was it *really*? It made assumptions and
simplifications - and so must we). One of the motivations between my
desire for an economy is my desire for IC politics of sort. If Bubba wants
some Mithril to have a sword made from, Bubba will have to acquire it
(simple scenario). This could be as simple as going to the market if he
lives in Kalusia, but if he lives in Lor-Jerich (on a completely different
continent), he might have to go as far as launching a trading expedition
(which could be very long and dangerous).
> If you expect a player to be able to make money occasionally from
> selling items they make, you will find that players will expect to be
> able to sell those items reliably for a reliable price. And telling
> them that there's a glut of bagpipes in the area doesn't mollify them
> much.
I will have the potential for players to be craftsmen, but expect it to be
used in an adventuring scenario more often (of course, playing as a
crafts-person purely is possible). The only non-adventuring profession I
would really expect to be popular is trader (and this is still quite
adventure-wrought!). If players choose their crafts wisely, supply and
demand will not be troublesome, or if they have ingeneous ways of
approaching things (for instance, devising their own alloys from which to
make things, or creating small magical spells to enhance their wares).
The thing that leaps to mind (you mention this at the end), is that
players will protest "I spent two hours making this Shield, but I can
barely make money from it! Two hours - it should be worth a fortune!". The
answer "Maybe it is, but noone wants to buy it for that much." doesn't do
much. Its something they will just have to live with. :)
> Some of the things we tracked and did:
>
> - track local availability of raw materials for goods fabrication
I do this, and also use it to adjust the system value of materials (the
game value of all materials is relative, using gold as the base, since
gold has some magical/religious significance, or rather, had).
> - track amount of materials on hand for the shop
Yup. "Stockpiles" of materials in places they are stored or used. This
gets fairly interesting if a shop catches fire and is being used for
storing wood or paper (or oil for that matter!).
> - track sales rate for individual good types both in the shop and in
> the local area
I don't actually do this explicitly, but I do modify value slightly with
supply and demand ratios.
> - shops able to recycle goods into materials, with wastage
Yup. Particularly with metal - with wood this tends to produce lots of
smaller, less useful pieces of wood, whereas metal can be broken back down
to its components if they are different enough (or if its just cut up
cleverly - there is always some waste).
> - determine target stock levels for goods based on turnaround,
> materials, demand locally and in this shop, etc
Vaguely done - traders track what they tend to use, and will try to make
sure they have an adequate supply if it becomes available to them (noting
the price of course).
> - variable pricing dependent upon all the rest
Yup. Traders (both suppliers and retailers) have a 'generosity' rating
too, which tracks how nasty/nice they are with respects to giving deals,
or overcharging, etc.
[Snip]
> So now we have a less accurate economy, but one that satisfies
> players. And we learned (again) the lesson to never lose sight of the
> enjoyment of those who aren't as cutting edge as you are. ;)
Well, we don't have to. :) I wonder if anyone would use it if they could
use out, etc?
Regards,
-Matt Chatterley
ICQ: 5580107
"We can recode it; we have the technology."
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00174" HREF="msg00174.html">Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</A></strong>,
PMDF e-Mail Interconnect <a href="mailto:postmaster#nova,wright.edu">postmaster#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 06:55 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00176" HREF="msg00176.html">Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</A></strong>,
PMDF e-Mail Interconnect <a href="mailto:postmaster#nova,wright.edu">postmaster#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 08:33 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00178" HREF="msg00178.html">Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</A></strong>,
PMDF e-Mail Interconnect <a href="mailto:postmaster#nova,wright.edu">postmaster#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 15:46 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 01:03 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00190" HREF="msg00190.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sun 11 Jan 1998, 14:07 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00201" HREF="msg00201.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></strong>,
JC Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,Eng.Sun.COM">claw#under,Eng.Sun.COM</a>, Sun 11 Jan 1998, 22:10 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00154" HREF="msg00154.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online)</A></strong>,
Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vadimt#4cs,com">vadimt#4cs,com</a>, Fri 09 Jan 1998, 22:15 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00156" HREF="msg00156.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Fri 09 Jan 1998, 23:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00173" HREF="msg00173.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 06:40 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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