<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility -->
<!--X-From-R13: "Fenivf E. Qnfrl" <rsvaqryNvb.pbz> -->
<!--X-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:10:31 -0700 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: Pine.BSI.3.96.980702145111.18463A-100000#pentagon,io.com -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Reference: 199806302340.QAA00811#under,engr.sgi.com -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:efindel#io,com">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00035.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00037.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00042.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00279.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00036">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00036">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00036">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Travis S. Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:09:00 -0500 (CDT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, J C Lawrence wrote:
> Travis S Casey<efindel#io,com> wrote:
>
> > That's one problem. However, there is another, more subtle reason
> > to "get more complex" -- it helps to separate player knowledge from
> > character knowledge.
>
> Umm, true. I usually think of them as synonymous (a side effect of my
> GoPish play style). I'm rather uncomfortable with the very concept of
> the game attempting to retain an IC vs OOC knowledge disctinction
> (mostly because it would bug the crap out of me as a player).
Coming from pencil-and-paper games, I'm used to having the distinction
exist -- indeed, when you allow a single player to run multiple
characters, or have the same character being used by different players at
different times, it becomes a *necessary* distinction. Many muds try to
enforce a policy of "each player can only have one character". This, in
combination with not having any true death (as, again, most muds do) means
that there is a 1-1 correspondence of players to characters. In that
situation, the problem is much less severe.
(It can, however, still exist in many situations. For example, if the
game world is a standard fantasy world and the GM decides to throw in
an alien spaceship crash-landing on the world, the *players* may know
perfectly well what it is, but their *characters* shouldn't.)
> Play-style question -- we went over this this way back int he question
> of the degree of seperation of the game character from the human
> player. Does the character have any existance outside of its human
> player, or is it a pure thoughtless automaton as instructed by the
> player's commands? I favour the latter.
In theory, I favor the latter. In practice, for muds and other
semi-real-time computer games, I favor the former. Why? Because I don't
think that players should have to log off from the game every time they
have to do something else for a few seconds or a minute, and that it's
better to give the character a few basic protective reactions than to
allow players to "pause" their characters or the game.
However, I don't believe that characters should be capable of complex
behaviors without their players; only the most basic, most needed
protective reactions.
> > Of course, now we can get even more complicated in terms of
> > situations -- what if the character should know, based on
> > information that's been given to him/her in-game, but not from
> > personal experience? For example, two adventurers talking in a
> > tavern:
>
> Bingo.
Yep, that's the problem. In a paper game the problem disappears, because
a human GM can understand the conversations that characters are having and
therefore know if a PC has been told something by another. For a mud,
however, it becomes a problem.
When/if we get AI programs that can parse and understand normal human
"speech" (using quotes here since, in this case, we're talking about typed
text rather than real speech), a lot of new avenues will be opened up for
muds. Until then, we're forced to either ignore the problems or seek for
kludges to work around them.
[description of a simulation, and of some problems with it, cut]
> Past a questionable arguable point simulation accuracy doesn't matter
> any more.
I agree... and I think the simulation that I described is accurate enough
for most practical purposes. However, long experience on Usenet has
ingrained in me the habit of bringing up obvious objections to or holes in
solutions/ideas that I post. It's my way of trying to prevent long,
pointless threads where four or five people point out the same hole that I
thought was obvious enough or rare enough that no one would point it out.
> Heck, I occassionally lose the light switches on the wall at home --
> and I see and use them every day. Mostly this is due to my forgetting
> that in the US flicking a light switch UP turns the light on, and in
> England it turns the light off. Ergo I've had to relearn (and still
> occassionally forget) the habit of walking into a dark room and
> sweeping my arm _down_ to turn the lights on to now (in the US) sweep
> my arm _up_.
I have a similar problem... we have several rooms where there are two
light switches by the door (one for a light, one for a fan).
Unforunately, they aren't placed consistently, so I often turn on a fan
when I mean to turn on a light, or vice-versa.
> Perhaps your above problem could equate to modelling my imperfect
> light switch operating habits?
Yes, it could. :-)
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>:
<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00279" HREF="msg00279.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul>
</UL></LI></UL>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00035.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00037.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00042.html">[MUD-Dev] [RELEASED] Update release of ScryMUD (Accepting builders)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00279.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00036"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00036"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00043" HREF="msg00043.html">[MUD-Dev] Meta (Are code release announcement appreciated?)</A></strong>,
Ben Greear <a href="mailto:greear#cyberhighway,net">greear#cyberhighway,net</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 02:13 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00044" HREF="msg00044.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Meta (Are code release announcement appreciated?)</A></strong>,
Nathan F Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 02:20 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00045" HREF="msg00045.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Meta (Are code release announcement appreciated?)</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 05:44 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00042" HREF="msg00042.html">[MUD-Dev] [RELEASED] Update release of ScryMUD (Accepting builders)</A></strong>,
Ben Greear <a href="mailto:greear#cyberhighway,net">greear#cyberhighway,net</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 02:11 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00036" HREF="msg00036.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 20:10 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00279" HREF="msg00279.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 18:15 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00280" HREF="msg00280.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: darkness/visibility</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 18:40 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00026" HREF="msg00026.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Multi-Server games</A></strong>,
Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vt#freehold,crocodile.org">vt#freehold,crocodile.org</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 00:25 GMT
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00028" HREF="msg00028.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Multi-Server games</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 00:40 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>