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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Richard Woolcock <<A HREF="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:28:53 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
apocalypse#pipeline,com wrote:
>
> > ALL quotes following are From: Hal Black :
> >I think the reason why we feel this way was touched on by both you and
> >Mr. Darklock. Namely, the Vampire doesn't like to feel sun on his face and
> >the scenario on Legends that transports people to various situations. It
> >makes sense for a young boy to have great joy in bubble-gum, but probably
> >not so for a stodgy vampire.
>
> Hmmm...Im going to have to say that is very, very, literal in the assumption
> of how a vampire would feel about sunlight. From most game systems where
> vampires are used, all were once human (even CAINE the first.), and im sure
> all at least once, liked sunlight. So, why is it impossible for the vampire
> to not long, yearn, and terribly desire the sun? In every writing, every book,
> every scrap of RPG, ive not yet, seen even ONE, that didnt.
True enough, many (*not* all) vampires in novels miss the sun - but bare in
mind the description was from a WoD MUSH:
Vampires do not fear much but, being immortal, still fear that which can put
an end to their existences. The two greatest threats a vampire faces are
sunlight and fire, and these dangers provoke in Kindred a terror which goes
beyond all normal fear - the Rotschreck.
-- Vampire: The Masquerade.
Even if the viewer WAS able to ignore "a terror which goes beyond all normal
fear", do you really think they'd sit there smiling as their face melted off?
The point is that no single situation can be applied to everyone.
> >Thus, the main objection is probably to the fact that most descriptions are
> >viewer-independent, and therefore really not a true perception.
[huge snip]
> How do we know? We don't, and I would say that to get a "true" perception of the
> room, we let them percieve it, within the guidelines we establish, for the story-
> line we are advancing, to the ends we wish. Theyve come to us to be told a story,
> to be put into another "reality", to play within our universes. Lets let them do
> the work they want to do, imagining.
Try splitting room descriptions into three catagories:
1) Create a 'pretty' description, with lots of details.
2) As above, but make the details dependant on the viewer.
3) Create factual descriptions, accurate yet lifeless.
The third method is the only way to create a description that is totally accurate
to everyone - but is this really a good thing? Using the second method would allow
correct - and far more entertaining - descriptions almost all of the time.
[snip]
> >One of the things that I have planned for my mud is to do some observer-
> >specific rendering of sensations. Certainly everyone doesn't see things the
> >same way, or even notice the same things. This may even extend to context.
>
> The first part is interesting, and merits exploration. The second part however,
> is a self-proof of why a room description must be not conforming to EVERY
> viewpoint. If sam and mark walk into the room, and sam sees one room, and mark
> sees an entirely different room, in the SAME room...How can that be possible..
Perhaps Sam is a vampire while Mark is a mortal. Perhaps Sam is blind, or Mark
is deaf. There are many reasons why the descriptions would vary. You seem to
think in terms of a description as being part of the room, while I think of them
as being the players interpretation of the room (note that in my mud, descriptions
are created by use of the 'look' command and are discarded afterwards, they are
not stored by the room).
> Your doing what you didnt want to do, your forcing mark to NOT see what sam
> sees, however minutely or broadly...Who is to say mark DOSENT see what sam sees
> and vice-versa?
There is no reason why they couldn't see the same thing - but not everyone should
see the same description, particularly if it invokes emotional responses.
> If you leave the room description alone, and write it cleverly enough once, it
> will evoke the myriad of responses and reactions your looking for. I cant even
> begin to think of a description that wouldnt work for everyone.
Well the vampire one was a perfect example IMO.
> The room description is a magical thing in my eyes. It has so much power in so
> little space. Try this one... "The room is clogged with a greasy, black, oily
> smoke on which you cough."
I'd probably write it like this:
"The room is clogged with a choking, greasy, oily black smoke"
> A vamp walks in and sees it...He dosent need air? why is he
> coughing!!! magic smoke?!? a new strain of vampire attacking
> gas?!?
But what if it ISN'T magic smoke - what if it's just a fire (which would probably
be far more frightening to a vampire anyway)?
> A "buisiness woman" walks in and sees it...Smoke?? here??
> a fire? is it messing up my hair? im couging, i need to leave.
>
> A firefighter : SMOKE!!!! i have GOT to put out the fire!!!
A firefighter: But wait! I'm choking even THROUGH my gas mask! I'm outa here!
> A child : im coughing, i dont like it...this is what it feels like!
> no air, (intuition - I need to leave!) I "feel" the smoke, they called
> it "greasy", this is what they define as "greasy".
>
> and I can go on, and on, and on. in just 1 line, an entire complex thought
> process has been evoked in EVERYONE..without having to add in complex, un-
But the description is too broad, to general - it detracts from the realism.
> necessary, gender/race/age/class/time-of-day/etc specific routines. It is the
> embodiment of the power of the spoken/printed word, it did ALL the work for me,
> and in a very neat way.
I have to disagree totally. I admit that I am very much for realism in muds, so
maybe that is why I find it so difficult to see your point of view.
[snip]
> > In conclusion, I think the objection corresponds to treating all visitors as
> >if they have the same thought processes, when the set of visitors may be
> >in fact heterogeneous.
>
> It wouldnt matter if they were all of the same "make-up" or not. They are going
> to see the room, they may attach significance to it, they may not, but somewhere,
> in the back of their head, is that phrase "The sun was warm on my face, it felt
> good", which could spark imagination, RP, or thought later.
Except for the vampire, who thinks "Arg! The sun! I'm melting! FRENZY!!!".
Except for the drow, who thinks "Arg! The great fireball in the sky! I'm blind!".
Except for the albino, who thinks "Ouch! The sun is burning my skin and eyes!".
When running a pen&paper roleplaying game and were quoting from some pre-made
notes, would you describe to your players something like:
"The shadows seem to flicker away from the light of your torches..."
What if the players had lanterns? What if they had infravision? Would you tell
them to "use their imagination" or change the description accordingly?
KaVir.
</PRE>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="01298" HREF="msg01298.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> apocalypse#pipeline,com</LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01330" HREF="msg01330.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: After a long absense, a semi-return (and TFD)</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Mon 28 Sep 1998, 06:20 GMT
</LI>
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</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01291" HREF="msg01291.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 00:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01310" HREF="msg01310.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 18:20 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01298" HREF="msg01298.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
apocalypse <a href="mailto:apocalypse#pipeline,com">apocalypse#pipeline,com</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 07:48 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01303" HREF="msg01303.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 14:24 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01305" HREF="msg01305.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 16:49 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01307" HREF="msg01307.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
Hal Black <a href="mailto:hal#moos,ml.org">hal#moos,ml.org</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 16:58 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01311" HREF="msg01311.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
quzah [sotfhome] <a href="mailto:quzah#softhome,net">quzah#softhome,net</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 18:30 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01312" HREF="msg01312.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Room descriptions</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 18:44 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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