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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</H1>
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<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: Vadim Tkachenko <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Travis Casey <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:37:05 -0500</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On 6 July 98, Vadim Tkachenko wrote:
> Travis S. Casey wrote:
>> I think we're approaching the whole idea of hiding numbers from different
>> viewpoints. My goal is not "security" -- if someone really wants to know
>> how the game works underneath, that's fine with me. Rather, my goal in
>> hiding numbers would be to help preserve the illusion that you're playing
>> a real character in a real world, and to encourage players to make
>> decisions on the basis of "what would make sense in that situation" rather
>> than on the basis of "how do the numbers look." In short, to encourage
>> roleplaying over GoP.
> Well, there is a different solution which may please both GoPers and
> role-players - allow several directions to progress. This way, whatever
> the numbers are, it would be impossible to say 'this is cool' and 'this
> sucks'. Just because all the numbers are relative and non-comparable -
> like apples and oranges, two mages may be totally different mages - the
> illusionist and the sorcerer. This is a simplified example, but let's
> pretend, say, as someone mentioned, that the good sword fighter requires
> a good rhythm skill, and a good archer or shooter requires ... say, an
> advanced water breathing, which implies the ability to hold a breath and
> get a good shot.
> What do you think?
I've argued for the idea of allowing several directions to progress
many times before on this list -- indeed, I believe that any system
which is meant to promote roleplaying should do that.
I don't see any point to requiring a good rhythm skill to become a
good swordfighter, or a good water breathing skill to become a good
archer -- it simply doesn't make any sense. If a skill is needed to
become good at something, then you will learn that skill in the course
of becoming good at it -- that is, if you have to have a sense of
rhythm to be a good swordfighter, then learning to swordfight should
increase your sense of rhythm. Now, already have a good sense of
rhythm might help you out at first, but that's not the same thing as
requiring it.
If I were building a mud system, I'd use learning by doing and
training as the methods of becoming better at skills. In both cases,
it makes sense to assume that in the course of learning a skill,
you'll learn whatever parts of related skills are needed.
(Now, some skills might logically be prerequisites for other skills...
for example, you can't learn quantum mechanics unless you know either
matrix algebra or integral calculus. However, the only examples of
such skills that I can think of are knowledge-type skills, which are
arguably poorly represented by standard RPG skill systems. Further,
it's often possible to learn the "prerequisites" for a skill as you
learn the skill -- more difficult and slower, to be sure, but
possible.)
> And let me guess, even today UO has so much numbers, that it would be
> quite difficult to grok them.
I have no idea. From what I saw on the web site, UO is no worse than
a medium-complexity paper RPG, and there are certainly people who grok
those. All that I know about how UO works, though, is what I've seen
on that web site -- I've never played it.
>> Heck, if I were to set up such a system, I'd probably put the details of
>> how it "really works" on the web myself, for those interested in it.
>> There's nothing that stops hackers from trying to "crack" something better
>> than the fact that the info's free for anyone to download.
> As would do any developer who is proud of his work do. And besides, it's
> not the shame when someone is smarter than you (and you have a chance to
> learn), the shame is when you try to conceal your ignorance.
Yep. Since I don't expect to make any money off of any mud I develop,
there's no economic reason to hide how it works.
I came into muds from the paper RPG world, and there, the internal
workings of games *have* to be exposed in order for people to be able
to learn to run them. Thus, I'm used to creating systems with the
knowledge that players will be able to see any loopholes I leave open
-- so I create systems with that in mind. Therefore, I don't have any
interest in trying to hide any loopholes the game has -- if it still
has them, I haven't done my job well enough.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
</PRE>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00055" HREF="msg00055.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Vadim Tkachenko <vt#freehold,crocodile.org></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Help Request On Creating MUD</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00031" HREF="msg00031.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Help Request On Creating MUD</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 01:30 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00019" HREF="msg00019.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Wed 01 Jul 1998, 21:54 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00038" HREF="msg00038.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 20:41 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00055" HREF="msg00055.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vt#freehold,crocodile.org">vt#freehold,crocodile.org</a>, Tue 07 Jul 1998, 02:43 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00165" HREF="msg00165.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 17:38 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00103" HREF="msg00103.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 05:45 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00181" HREF="msg00181.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sun 12 Jul 1998, 22:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00194" HREF="msg00194.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 20:14 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00197" HREF="msg00197.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 21:46 GMT
</LI>
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