<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun --> <!--X-From-R13: [nevna Uevssvgu <telcubaNvnrui.ay> --> <!--X-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:23:19 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Marcel-1.45-0722211816-b49Ky&5#catling,demon.nl --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 0761.980721#io,com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00319.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00321.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00288.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00466.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00320">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00320">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00320">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:18:16 +0100 (BST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Tue 21 Jul, Travis Casey wrote: Also a reply to Matthew R. Sheahan, who pointed out the same thing. > On 21 July 1998, Marian Griffith wrote: > > Violence does not equate physical violence. It is the exertion of > > power over somebody else. > Normally I don't get involved in this kind of debate, but I have to > say that this definition of violence is *far* too broad. > I don't think that most reasonable person would classify these as > violent acts. I am sorry. I was careless when I wrote that. However I hope everybody understood that I never meant the 'definition' to be that broad. > I'd propose this definition: > Any action which stands a serious risk of harming someone else is > violence. > Note that harm does not have to be physical -- one can harm someone > psychologically, socially, economically, or possibly in other ways. Which really was the point I was trying to make. I just need to learn to think before I write. > Note further that no value judgement is implied here: some acts of > violence may, in fact, be good. (For example, if I run headlong into > someone at full force, I stand a serious risk of harming them. > However, if I do this in an attempt to keep that person from being run > over by a bus, most people would count that as good.) > It should also be noted that violence may be unintentional -- the > person performing the violence may not realize or understand that > there is a potential for harm. I am having some trouble with this. For me there is a certain intention to harm somebody else before you can call it violence. But that may be my personal opinion. [further explanations snipped] > With that said, I think the biggest disagreement among mudders is not > about whether violence is bad, but about what is a violent act. Some > believe that if you are acting in character, and only doing things to > someone else's character, there should be no serious potential for > harm -- that everyone in the mud should realize/believe that it's just > a game, and the characters are just playing pieces. > For another contingent, their characters are more than playing pieces > -- they are representatives of themselves in a virtual world. From > that point of view, an attempt to harm a character is an attempt to > harm the person playing that character, and is therefore violence. This is indeed a key difference. The difference is in the intention, not as much in the actual actions that are performed. > Most of us, I think, are somewhere in the middle, believing that some > actions are OK because "they just affect the characters" while others > are not OK or are less OK because they carry the potential of harming > the players. However, there is still disagreement over "where the > line should be drawn." This actually is much the same debate as what is sexual harassment. Not that I plan to get into -that- discussion -here-. [lots snipped] Never having played doom, nor likely to ever do, I would agree that in such games there is no violence against another player. But that is be- cause it is the whole point of the game to attack other characters. It is also why I do not expect to enjoy such games. However in muds there is a much more blurred line between violence against players and char- acters. I belief that this issue must be solved one way or the other or the games can not mature. How this can be done is not entirely clear, although I believe that Dr.Cat is on the right track with the idea that undesired behaviour must be resolved through taking away attention ra- ther than rewarding such behaviour. There still remain a lot of issues that must be solved of course. Marian -- Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world, out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again will there be loneliness ... Rolan Choosing Talia, Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00288" HREF="msg00288.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Travis Casey <efindel#polaris,net></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00319.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: DBMS in MU*'s</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00321.html">[MUD-Dev] More on Informix Linux release</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00288.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00466.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00320"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00320"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00143" HREF="msg00143.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 10 Jul 1998, 05:46 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00284" HREF="msg00284.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 21:19 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00286" HREF="msg00286.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Matthew R. Sheahan <a href="mailto:chaos#crystal,palace.net">chaos#crystal,palace.net</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 21:52 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00288" HREF="msg00288.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 22:19 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00320" HREF="msg00320.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 23 Jul 1998, 20:23 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00466" HREF="msg00466.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 03 Aug 1998, 20:55 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00484" HREF="msg00484.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 07:38 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00486" HREF="msg00486.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Robert Woods <a href="mailto:rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu">rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 08:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00554" HREF="msg00554.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 08 Aug 1998, 05:22 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>