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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:33:25 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
In <URL:<A HREF="news:local.muddev">news:local.muddev</A>> on Thu 02 Jul, Koster, Raph wrote:
> > From: Marian Griffith [SMTP:gryphon#iaehv,nl]
> > In <URL:<A HREF="news:local.muddev">news:local.muddev</A>> on Mon 29 Jun, Koster, Raph wrote:
> > > If you are coding a system whereby nobody can strike another person
> > > *even in justifiable circumstances*, what sort of society have you
> > > made, and what sort of ruler are you?
> > Here we have a point worth of very serious discussion. And one where I
> > very much have to disagree with you. I do not belief that there can be
> > justifiable circumstances to strike at somebody else. At least not in
> > a game that attempts to provide a safe environment.
> What about "keeping it safe"?
If I understand you correctly then I have to disagree still. Combat can
not be a justification to allow combat in a game. There may be other and
valid reasons to include combat, but conflict solving can not be one for
the same reason it is not allowed outside games either.
> > And I'm willing to
> > argue that the same is true in games like uol that do not attempt to
> > create a safe environment. However this is indicative on your view on
> > violence in games (a view that is shared by many current players).
> I do want to make it clear that I am not a particularly huge fan of it
> as a player. As a player, I am a hardcore roleplayer who doesn't usually
> fight even NPCs and monsters--I spend most all my time interacting with
> other players in roleplay. I merely feel that we can't ignore the factor
> violence is. :(
I know and agree that it can not be ignored, but it does not need to be
justified either. Combat, and especially players fighting others is the
problem, not part of the solution. The discussion is how to separate it
from the in-game role combat can play.
> > Those who do not enjoy the
> > anarchistic principles of current muds could accept the limitation of
> > their personal freedom to prevent such events/crimes from occuring in
> > the first place. I know I would not mind.
> Many people probably do not mind; certainly that is the classic
> trade-off: less freedoms for greater security. There is also the classic
> drawback: the people who take your freedoms and provide your security
> can then do quite a lot to you and you have surrendered enough freedom
> that you can't do anything about it. Of course, in a virtual context
> this problem is much less of an issue than in the real world.
The strange thing then is that so few people, on this list only Dr.Cat
that I know of, attempt to create a safer game environment, at the ex-
pense of some freedom of the players. Or am I being overly pessimistic
now?
> > > To get back to what you said, I think that a pure roleplay game of
> > large
> > > size will have to be a Stalinist setup, yes. And I don't LIKE it.
> > Then
> > > again, I think that MANY muds currently use such a restrictive
> > setup.
> > Restrictive does not make it stalinist. Nor fascist. The game prevents
> > certain actions that would, if unchecked one way or the other, become
> > harmfull to the majority of the players. Player's freedom is not taken
> > away. Only certain actions that would otherwise be prevented in diffe-
> > rent ways (e.g. by player vigilante activities).
> I think Mike S. explained pretty well what I meant here...
My apologies. Either I missed Mike's reply or (equally likely) it only
arrived after I did send my own reply off.
> > This is partly a problem because of the way power works in muds. The
> > only power there is -is- that of the sword.
> Not at all! As Dr Cat rightly points out, solutions such as ostracism
> are very powerful. Of course, given the fluidity of identity, ostracism
> is hard to implement. :(
I dearly would like to discuss this topic as well, preferably under an-
other subject and concentrating on possible solutions rather than on the
problem which has over the time been beaten to death (if you forgive me
the very poor pun).
What mechanisms in reality control the rampaging warbands? I don't think
fear of punishment is an effective deterrent as (would be) criminals do
not rationaly compare risks and rewards. Instead the simply believe they
will not get caught. So what social, ethical, economical and other mech-
anisms keep the vast majority of people from taking what they please and
eliminate all who oppose them. And can similar mechanism be brought over
to the mud environment with its unique characteristics?
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00287" HREF="msg00287.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00078" HREF="msg00078.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00034" HREF="msg00034.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00158" HREF="msg00158.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 00:59 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00245" HREF="msg00245.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 18 Jul 1998, 00:45 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00034" HREF="msg00034.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 19:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00040" HREF="msg00040.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 01:54 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00047" HREF="msg00047.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 20:48 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00078" HREF="msg00078.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 08 Jul 1998, 07:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00123" HREF="msg00123.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 19:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 02:04 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00183" HREF="msg00183.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 12 Jul 1998, 22:41 GMT
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