<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem --> <!--X-From-R13: Oqnz Ivttvaf <nqnzNnatry.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:19:20 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.SGI.3.96.980821190331.14669D-100000#zazu,angel.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Pine.PMDF.3.95.980818092011.541318557A-100000#nova,wright.edu --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:adam#angel,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00800.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00802.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00797.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00826.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00801">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00801">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00801">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Adam Wiggins <<A HREF="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:20:23 -0700 (PDT)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 s001gmu#nova,wright.edu wrote: > On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Jon A. Lambert wrote: > > Why is disallowing PKill or PSteal an unsatisfactory solution to this > > scenario? Why is only allowing "consential" PKill or PSteal an > > unsatisfactory solution to this scenario? > > The problem with disallowing PKill/PSteal is that a lot of people on here > are advocates of a more 'pure' simulation type game. They attempt to And as I always mention whenever this discussion pops up, we're talking about a *whole* lot more than just "PKill/PSteal". With a label like this, of course someone is always going to suggest some sort of mechanism for simply disabling these two specific actions. No, when you're doing a full simulation, what we're talking about is the ability for one player to interfere with another player's game. Attacking and killing someone is only the most obvious of these. I will refer again to the Beartrap Example (now mentioned enough times that it is worthy of upper case): Buffy digs a hole in the forest. She takes ten very sharp swords and buries their hilts in the dirt at the bottom of the hole. Then she takes loose brush and leaves and covers the hole, concealing it. Three days later, Bubba is strolling along peacefully through the forest. He steps over the concealed pit, unaware of its existence. The brush cannot support his weight, so he falls and is impaled on the swords. He dies. Was this PKill? Did Buffy set the trap in hopes to catch herself a meal, or did she do it just to disrupt other players? Maybe she knew specifically that Bubba would be coming that way and that he wouldn't notice the pit? You can easily think of more convulted examples - Buffy didn't dig the pit to catch anyone or anything, but rather because she was trying to find buried treasure. After retrieving the treasure she leaves. Months later Bubba is walking along and doesn't notice the pit which is now overgrown by light foliage. He falls in, breaks his leg, and starves to death in the bottom of the pit. Is this PK? Yes, it's complicated, and subtle. The ethics of these situations are just as complex in the real world as they are for a simulation-style mud. These sorts of situations are also the reason that there are some many lawsuits (and incedentaly, lawyers) here in the US. Who is at blame for any given situation where one or more parties are harmed, physically or otherwise? These same ethics apply to a simulation mud. The problem, of course, is that the simulation is not yet complete enough to include all the devices (most imposed by society) which we have the real world. Thus, we are forced to seek out quick "fixes" to these dillemas. > variables you add, the more situations you won't think of. Or, the more > moving parts, the more likely it is that something will break. Lets say Bad phrasing, I think. Looking at the examples above, I don't think that there's anything "broken", just subtleties not easily defined. > Dr. Cat has pointed out that you can avoid that problem by not building > such features in, but that is not satisfactory. Aye, not building As I said before, you can take away death and damage quite easily. The point is not that one's character takes virtual damage; the point is that if you can gain something inside the simulated world, at some point someone is going to feel bad when that thing is taken away from them by someone with ill intentions. It is true that reducing the interactions between characters, and the interaction between characters and the game world, reduces the chances of this sort of thing happening. It also limits your audience in a beneficial way - likely someone who is interested in purposely causing harm to other players will be put off by a game world where characters don't take damage or die. The crux of the problem is that Marian and other players like her *don't* want this. She wants to play a tailor in a world that isn't necessarily 100% safe; where there are many other character types including fighters and thieves. What she doesn't want is her play regularly disrupted in a massive way by one of these character types with ill intent, usually someone seeking an easy target and a cheap thrill. I think she *does* enjoy the idea that occasionally someone might try to shoplift, or that a dragon might attack the town (to be challanged by the town's defenders, of course). This is the depth of play and game world that I think all of us here are interested in, whether or not we want to play violet character types. Adam </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00971" HREF="msg00971.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#kanga,nu></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00826" HREF="msg00826.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00765" HREF="msg00765.html">[MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00800.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: An Introduction</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00802.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00797.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00826.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00801"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00801"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00854" HREF="msg00854.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Adam J. Thornton <a href="mailto:adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU">adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 04:43 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00861" HREF="msg00861.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 13:19 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00796" HREF="msg00796.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Jynx (Wyrm / Tygr / Myth) Ryn <a href="mailto:jynx_ryn#mindless,com">jynx_ryn#mindless,com</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 07:36 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00797" HREF="msg00797.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 13:12 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00801" HREF="msg00801.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Sat 22 Aug 1998, 02:19 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00826" HREF="msg00826.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 23 Aug 1998, 10:42 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00971" HREF="msg00971.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sun 06 Sep 1998, 17:51 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01027" HREF="msg01027.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 12 Sep 1998, 15:07 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00724" HREF="msg00724.html">[MUD-Dev] Missing MUD-Dev post (fwd)</A></strong>, Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 14 Aug 1998, 21:54 GMT </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>