<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ] --> <!--X-From-R13: "Rnzvba Epuhoreg" <mwvevnNgrknf.arg> --> <!--X-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:29:43 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 018001bdb90f$477d8ba0$3c32cfcf@Painland --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:zjiria#texas,net"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00363.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00365.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00400.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00371.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00364">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00364">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00364">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Damion Schubert" <<A HREF="mailto:zjiria#texas,net">zjiria#texas,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:33:09 -0500</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> -----Original Message----- From: Brandon J. Rickman <ashes#pc4,zennet.com> >On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote: >> [some stuff I should reply to, maybe later] >> >> I've been looking at AI recently, and thinking "If I do a really BAD AI, >> and admit up front through my backstory that 'the enemy is not too smart' >> or something like that, and work under the assumption that every player >> will be able to outwit and outsmart the AI... wouldn't that still be fun?" >> I mean, old games had really crappy AI. Think of the Might and Magic series >> through MM3. The enemy sees you, closes to melee range, and attacks. >> Period. It doesn't know how to go around anything. It doesn't know how to >> look in any direction except straight ahead. And if you put a low obstacle >> between you, you can merrily fire missile weapons into the enemy until it >> dies. Probably two or three enemies think to fire missiles back at you. And >> you know what? That was still pretty fun. > >Some quick Might & Magic 6 bashing: the "AI" has barely progressed from >that of the third installment. Not only _can_ you mow down hordes of >tri-colored skeletons from across three feet of water, you _have_ to, in >an endless, mindless slaughter-fest. To make this slightly less >entertaining, most powerful creatures will fire missiles and spells at you >from a distance and many are resistant to physical attacks. Having worked with Jon van Canegham, I can tell you that this is part of his design philosophy. Sure, he could improve the AI, but to be honest, it's a lot more satisfying to kill a horde than finally slay a solitary troll. He's a big believer of 'Nothing (including realism) should get in the way of the fun.' Sound familiar? I think he believes that everyone, deep down, wants to be a powergamer- and that's really the most rewarding part of the CRPG experience. By comparison, I've played Unreal lately, and I can't stress how unsatisfying it is to never fight more than 2 monsters at a time. And sure, they all exhibit good AI, but in some cases, it's so good that the only way I could beat the level was to abuse holes in the AI. I felt like a cheat when I did that. When I killed 60 skeletons in M&M6 with one spell, I felt like a god. >Since there >are so many monsters to kill (I would estimate there are at least 50 >monsters to kill for every friendly villager wandering around town. So >much for preventing the world from being taken over by an evil plot - >things are bad all over, and it is up to you to kill everybody.) the >rewards are very small. And actually the best source of experience is to >complete various quests, most of which require the termination of some 40 >to 300 monsters, frequently human. >Thinking about how uninteresting I found M&M I started to make some >little diagrams to illustrate how simple the play structure is and >how narrow the appeal. But I'm unsatisfied with it and will postpone >posting it for the moment, lest it be taken as a simple bash on a game >that isn't even a mud. The basic idea is that a game can be more >satisfying when the activity of the game changes over time, moving from a >struggle to survive to ambitions of glory, or vice versa. If the >amount of character management increases as the game difficulty increases >I find that the fun is diminished. While other companies work to reinvent the RPG experience, M&MVI stays true to it's form and provides an extension of the old CRPGs - Bards Tale 2, Might and Magic I, Ultima III, Wizardry. They did a bloody good job, and the game took ~120 hours of my life away. I'd never accuse it of being a ROLE- playing game, or a fantastic story, but gosh, it was fun. Does this have relevance for MUDs? I think it has a lot. On the other hand, about a third of the posts on this forum is dedicated to controlling powergamers, instead of indulging them. =) --damion </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00902" HREF="msg00902.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00429" HREF="msg00429.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Brandon J. Rickman" <ashes#pc4,zennet.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00401" HREF="msg00401.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <adam#angel,com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00371" HREF="msg00371.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00363.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00365.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00400.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00371.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00364"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00364"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00359" HREF="msg00359.html">[MUD-Dev] The Eternal City on The Big Network</A></strong>, Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Sun 26 Jul 1998, 00:37 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00356" HREF="msg00356.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Markku Nylander <a href="mailto:thenewt#use,usit.net">thenewt#use,usit.net</a>, Sat 25 Jul 1998, 13:39 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00357" HREF="msg00357.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Nathan F Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Sat 25 Jul 1998, 22:42 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00400" HREF="msg00400.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 28 Jul 1998, 18:39 GMT </LI> </UL> <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00364" HREF="msg00364.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Damion Schubert <a href="mailto:zjiria#texas,net">zjiria#texas,net</a>, Mon 27 Jul 1998, 03:29 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00371" HREF="msg00371.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Mon 27 Jul 1998, 09:27 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00401" HREF="msg00401.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 28 Jul 1998, 18:48 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00414" HREF="msg00414.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 29 Jul 1998, 06:09 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00418" HREF="msg00418.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>, Adam J. Thornton <a href="mailto:adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU">adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU</a>, Wed 29 Jul 1998, 14:21 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>