<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem --> <!--X-From-R13: f001tzhNabin.jevtug.rqh --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:05:42 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.PMDF.3.95.980818092011.541318557A-100000#nova,wright.edu --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199808180557.AAA20601@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00764.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00766.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00764.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00771.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00765">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00765">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00765">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</A></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:05:34 -0400 (EDT)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Jon A. Lambert wrote: [...] > There is a single troubling aspect to this scenario. There seems to > be an insistence here that the tailor still be subject to a > non-consentual PKill and/or PSteal, yet to have it occur as rarely as > in RL, but not as frequently as in most MUDs. [...] > Why is disallowing PKill or PSteal an unsatisfactory solution to this > scenario? Why is only allowing "consential" PKill or PSteal an > unsatisfactory solution to this scenario? The problem with disallowing PKill/PSteal is that a lot of people on here are advocates of a more 'pure' simulation type game. They attempt to model reality first, and then build a game into that. As JC has pointed out in the past, when you have a model that is (nearly) as infinitely flexible as reality, how do you prevent PKill/PSteal? The more variables you add, the more situations you won't think of. Or, the more moving parts, the more likely it is that something will break. Lets say you attempt to build a 'no-combat' zone. Define combat. Two opponents engaged in an attempt to harm the other... ok. What if I drop a rock on someone from a cliff 100' above? Am I attempting to harm them? How does the computer know? Any attempt to go back and remove combat and harming an individual after the fact appears kludgy, and is prone to not cover every way possible to do harm. Dr. Cat has pointed out that you can avoid that problem by not building such features in, but that is not satisfactory. Aye, not building mechanisms like dropping rocks into the game is certainly a valid solution, but not within the problem space of a simulation game. Marian's Tailor Problem becomes a non-issue when you choose to design the game with it in mind from the get-go, but what about those people who choose to design their games with other issues in mind? Is it possible to design a 'realism-game' and yet allow for tailors to lead peacfull lives? As Dr. Cat has pointed out as well, the list has focused primarliy on solutions to this problem, and not others (like disallowing damage to players, etc), and I think this happened because a lot of people either didn't think about it, or noted that the solution provided by not building damage in didn't address the problem they were trying to solve (back to the ostriches and kangaroos, my what a lovely pouch you have sir... do you carry your eggs in it?). For an actual solution to the problem, well, I can't really comment. Until recently, I've been in the realism-game camp, but of late I don't know that I really want to design such a game anymore. I've been doing a lot of game-design-soul-searching of late, and have come to a few tenative solutions that differ considerably from previous oppinions I've held. Mayhaps this enforced month of no net access will allow me to formalize my thoughts enough to write a post or two about it. Oh well. Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02. -Greg </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00801" HREF="msg00801.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <adam#angel,com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00796" HREF="msg00796.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Jynx (Wyrm / Tygr / Myth) Ryn" <jynx_ryn#mindless,com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00771" HREF="msg00771.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00762" HREF="msg00762.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00764.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00766.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00764.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00771.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00765"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00765"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00749" HREF="msg00749.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 16 Aug 1998, 21:21 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00751" HREF="msg00751.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Mon 17 Aug 1998, 07:04 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00762" HREF="msg00762.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 05:58 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00764" HREF="msg00764.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>, Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 07:26 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00765" HREF="msg00765.html">[MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 14:05 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00771" HREF="msg00771.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 21:55 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00773" HREF="msg00773.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, jwilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 23:39 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00845" HREF="msg00845.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 03:09 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00848" HREF="msg00848.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 03:47 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>