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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:08:02 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Fri 31 Jul, J C Lawrence wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:39:45 +0100 (BST)
> Marian Griffith<gryphon#iaehv,nl> wrote:
> > The problem as I (and the original author) have is not so much that
> > Buffy's shop can be raided but that it is Buffy herself who has to
> > defend it. She is a tailor and possibly has no interest at all in
> > becoming a sword swinger or else she would not have chosen that
> > profession in the first place.
> There's a design choice implicit in there under the inferred "right"
> to do soley what she is intersted in, or to rephrase "To what extent
> are the game or the game designers obligated to support narraw career
> definitions?":
> Buffy is a tailor and thereby should (pick one):
> a) Never have to involve actions or skills notably outside her
> chosen profession.
Never is a strong word, but I strongly believe the game should provide the
protection, not the player herself.
[confusing selection of choices snipped]
> Where the should/may substitution isolates the intended
> cross-pollination and spread between skill sets.
I trust -you- know what you mean. I am afraid you have lost me here,
or somewhere in the list I snipped. Sorry. I will try not to show my
ignorance quite as much.
> Please note that none of this is predicated on combat
> > Somehow in a game there must be ways for players to control
> > harmful actions of other players in such a way that it does not
> > involve more of the same. If a player attacks and kills other
> > players the victims shouldn't be required to become better fighters
> > if they do not care for that role (and the game allows them to
> > play different roles).
> <ponder>
> Some shared or common skill sets are assumable. Here in the US it is
> usually reasonable to assume that any non-senile adult is able to
> drive. Other skills follow as a matter of culture and societal
> structure. There is in any design an assumed or assumable baseline of
> a common set of skills which all characters will have in some
> non-negligable degree. This fact is of course almost universally
> ignored, which is why that baseline is equally almost never defined,
> despite the fact that any game design implicitly defines one.
> So, what is the baseline in your system? Yes, you are playing a
> tailor, which is a valid occupation in this game, and are not playing
> a sword wielding armoured warrior, which is another supported role in
> the game. This does not mean that the tailor should not and does not
> have some skill at self-defense or street fighting, or more simply,
> that he is not savvy in the more physical aspects of his world. It
> all depends on the game designed-in assumable skill sets.
I think we are constantly missing the point the other is trying to make
which makes me wonder if there is any reason to continue the discussion
I do not mean it is pointless but we do not seem to get anywhere.
> Another view of this is how narrowly the occupation skills are
> defined, or at least how narrowly pursuit of an occupation defines the
> other skill sets. Is a good or even excellant tailor necessarily an
> abysmall sword swinger?
Is it necessary for a tailor to care at all?
Originally I started the, I expect by now infamous, tailor example as
being about -me-. I can easily imagine myself playing the role of a
tailor in a mud. Most of the things I mentioned are things I believe
can be fun to do and would, for me, make a fun game to play. It would
be a non violent role in a nearly non violent environment. I will not
request the impossible and demand an entirely safe environment since
there will always be troublemakers. What I do however feel I have the
right to demand is that being non-violent myself the game will defend
me from the occasional trouble maker. Defend, not prevent. If I can't
be a peacefull tailor because I would be everybody's victim then the
game has in a very real way failed to live up to its promise to me. I
do not at this moment care how things are going to be handled. I even
think that it is irrelevant as long as 'we' do not admit that the is-
sue must be solved at another level than giving players means to kill
each other in more or less creative ways.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00451" HREF="msg00451.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Robert Woods <rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00439" HREF="msg00439.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00444" HREF="msg00444.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 01 Aug 1998, 21:56 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00122" HREF="msg00122.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 19:38 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00161" HREF="msg00161.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>,
Orion Henry <a href="mailto:orionZ#ix,netcom.com">orionZ#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 03:42 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00439" HREF="msg00439.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 31 Jul 1998, 23:01 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00448" HREF="msg00448.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 01 Aug 1998, 21:57 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00451" HREF="msg00451.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>,
Robert Woods <a href="mailto:rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu">rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu</a>, Sun 02 Aug 1998, 01:11 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sun 02 Aug 1998, 05:37 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00050" HREF="msg00050.html">[MUD-Dev] IMatix Tools: Libero and SMT</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 06 Jul 1998, 20:39 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00048" HREF="msg00048.html">[MUD-Dev] Ubiquity Scope & Requirements</A></strong>,
Greg Munt <a href="mailto:greg#uni-corn,demon.co.uk">greg#uni-corn,demon.co.uk</a>, Sun 05 Jul 1998, 19:54 GMT
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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