<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...) --> <!--X-From-R13: pngNotn.pbz (png) --> <!--X-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:29:43 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199807091728.MAA29901#zoom,bga.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d </title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:cat#bga,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00112.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00114.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00166.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00129.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00113">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00113">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00113">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</A> (cat)</LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:28:48 -0500</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> Till Eulenspiegel wrote: > From: Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl> > >The strange thing then is that so few people, on this list only Dr.Cat > >that I know of, attempt to create a safer game environment, at the ex- > >pense of some freedom of the players. Or am I being overly pessimistic > >now? > > > > Dr. Cat does the extreme. I think this perspective may be fairly typical of the people on mud-dev. It's why I feel like a kangaroo at the annual emu and ostrich convention. There's nothing wrong with being an emu or an ostrich, but kangaroos don't necessarily have enough in common with them to have much to talk about. And I mean, really, you have to be really, really into your ostrichness to think "oh, being featherless is some kinda extreme unusual thing". How many of the almost six billion humans on this planet play games where they make believe that they're striking Bubba with a sharp object in order to get some coins, or some equivalent? I think far more of them are playing games like Trivial Pursuit, Bridge, Monopoly, Awari, Mah Johngg, Poker, or Windows Solitaire. Many more adults still buy into the notion that "games" and/or "play" are things kids do, adults work and then maybe relax with some leisure activity like a book, a movie, or chatting with friends over a beer at the pub. People are interested in socializing and communicating. And they generally prefer a reasonable safe environment for it, free of any risks of being attacked or even of having to watch others being attacked around them. On the net, the number one application BY FAR is email. After that probably comes chatting, browsing the web for information and/or entertainment, and maybe newsgroups. Playing games at all is less common, playing muds is a fraction of that, and playing muds that have combat systems programmed in is a subset of all muds. Trying to provide a colorful, pleasant communications and creativity tool with a nice user interface and a comfortable, "safe" environment doesn't put me in the "extreme". It puts me in the main-stream, the mud-dev readership is the ex-treme. There seems to be so much time spent playing these games, talking to other people that play these games, and talking to other people that program these games, that it's possible to get wrapped up in this mindset, perspective, and environment to the point of thinking that it IS the mainstream. And losing sight of the big picture. But this list doesn't even cover the totality of mud development, mostly only the subset that involves descendants of the combat oriented muds. You don't see much talk about the MOO, MUSH, TinyMUD, MUCK and other families of social muds. You don't see much talk about an educational mud like that one that was set up at MIT (Cyberion City, wasn't it?) or the mud that was set up for astronomers to communicate and exchange information through. And while this list doesn't even cover all of the territory in the field of muds, the muds are just a small corner of the Internet. And the Internet is just a small corner of human experience. This place is the ex-treme, not the main-stream. What's particularly amazing to me is the response here to one statement. When it was asked whether it mightn't be worth also having environments where you couldn't physically strike anyone, someone replied "what if it's necessary?" And the reply back was "I don't think it IS necessary." Instead of the interesting debate on whether or not it is or might be truly "necessary" to strike someone to deal with problems in an environment where combat and fighting aren't built into the code, the responses from various people drifted right back into the question of whether it is or isn't necessary in an environment that DOES have combat built in, and is in a setting (like medieval fantasy) where combat is normal and expected. It seems this is the only kind of setting people here really want to talk about. But tell me, does anyone think that the astronomers exchanging papers and chatting about their latest discoveries really need to use make-believe physical combat in order to keep the peace on their mud? The statement about striking other people being necessary as given, and in the context of what it was replying to, was a very extremist sort of position. And yet, only one person said anything to try to strongly counter it or disagree with it. Everyone else seems to have filtered it in their own minds to a much more moderate statement, a more defensible one. While at the same time removing the vast majority of contexts to which it could (and did, as stated) be applied, and instead only considering how it applies in a very narrow range of contexts. Consider something much closer to mainstream - not the 90,000 subscribers of Ultima Online, but the well over ten million subscribers of America Online. Let's look at some of thoughts in that context. > In our statistics a remarkably small percentage of players accounts for > a gross majority of problems. We've seen more success from banning > problem people. This option works for us however because we are not > a pay-for system and have no implied service level guarantee. > Not a scalable solution, IMO. In point of fact, I think America Online did more banning and censoring than Genie and Compuserve. Last year, America Online BOUGHT Compuserve. Banning is clearly scalable, since they have over ten million people. It' s the free, hobbyist muds where things are less scalable. Whether you need more RAM, more hard disk, more CPU, or more staff-who-ban-people, in a hobbyist system or game getting ten times the users just means more work and more costs. In a commercial system, it also means roughly ten times the revenues, which will pay for the extra staff or RAM or whatever you need. Implied service level guarantee would be an argument FOR banning rather than against it. If Boffo goes around calling everyone a zebra's private parts on Bubba's Bodacious Mud, and he isn't banned for that... The wizards can reply to any complaints by saying "If you don't like the level of service we're giving you for free, don't play!" If you're paying America Online to get called a zebra' s naughty bits by Boffo and you complain, they have an obligation to listen, make excuses, and/or do something about Boffo. There's no issue of Boffo's implied service level guarantee, because the service agreement (that he clicked "accept" on without reading) says that you not only aren't guaranteed the right to go around harassing everyone you meet, but that in fact if you choose to do so, you forfeit your right to all the other aspects of the service that you were guaranteed. Tough luck, Boffo. I'm trying to invent even better methods of dealing with trouble, in order to evolve beyond America Online and its ilk. But banning really is scalable, probably simpler and more cost effective than many of the more complex alternatives might be, and it gets the job done. America Online currently has a market capitalization of about $18 billion. And despite all the slams it regularly gets from non-subscribers, quite a number of its subscribers actually do enjoy the service provided. And they are there voluntarily, at that! .... Let's go back for a moment to this "but what if it's necessary to strike someone" question. Imagine we believe that it is indeed necessary sometimes, in any online environment that is to achieve sufficient richness, culture, size, depth, complexity, self-governance, whatever. Now let's say we go to try and apply this to America Online. First hurdle would be getting them to accept the axiom from here on mud- dev that the customers should be doing most of the work of keeping the peace, rather than the staff. Most of the AOL customers are mostly used to paying for a service, and having the provider make sure it's worth buying - like people are with most goods and services. But let's say you make an impassioned speech about the novel nature of online communities, how they're different from other services you might buy, fit into the future of mankind, blah blah blah, and you convince 'em. Ok. So let's say this guy says "Allright, you convinced me. What shall I do, for the good of us all? Make more effort to report troublemakers to the AOL staff? Send private messages to my fellow users suggesting that we all stop replying to the posts by that person? Put on ignore filters when they try to chat with me? Something else? What?" So we say to them, "No, actually, we have come to realize that it is necessary for you to engage in a game of make-believe with this troublemaker, where you pretend to strike him with a fist, sword, mace, or magical ball of flame, and he pretends to be hurt or even killed by it. This is NECESSARY in order to keep the peace on America Online. If we don't keep the peace in that particular way, we've realized that we will be forever lacking in true depth and cultural sophistication as a meaningful online community." "But... But... I just come here for a photography SIG! I don't even like books or movies about all that knights and wizards and dragons stuff, let alone playing this weird game you say I have to play with this guy I don't like. Are you sure there isn't ANYTHING else I could do instead?" "Oh, no problem! If you don't like knights and wizards, go meet him in the new Futurama section and you can nail him with blasters and lightsabers instead! Or if you're not into wild flights of fancy, more a down to earth, modern day, realistic guy - go over to Sim-Iraq, and you can attack him with guns, grenades, Scud Missiles, and germ warfare. THAT will teach him to not go around posting obscene pictures in your photography SIG!" I mean, really - isn't anyone else capable of seeing it as extremist and ludicrous to think of striking people as universally necessary, rather than just necessary in certain specific types of environments? Besides Marian, that is. Well I'm just a kangaroo. Hop hop hop, boing boing. Oh no thank you, no kangaroo-boxing for me today! Nice plumage you've got there. Hop hop. *-----------------------------------------**-----------------------------* Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test: *-----------------------------------------** <A HREF="http://www.bga.com/furcadia">http://www.bga.com/furcadia</A> Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar! *-----------------------------------------**-----------------------------* </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00421" HREF="msg00421.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00129" HREF="msg00129.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Dan Shiovitz <dbs#cs,wisc.edu></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00112.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: An Introduction</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00114.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00166.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Massive brainstorm rant about an imaginary class system. (resent)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00129.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00113"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00113"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00118" HREF="msg00118.html">[MUD-Dev] PRNGs: Pseudo Random Number Generators</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 18:34 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00115" HREF="msg00115.html">[MUD-Dev] Massive brainstorm rant about an imaginary class system. (resent)</A></strong>, Till Eulenspiegel <a href="mailto:choke#sirius,com">choke#sirius,com</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 17:48 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00145" HREF="msg00145.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Massive brainstorm rant about an imaginary classsystem. (resent)</A></strong>, Ross Nicoll <a href="mailto:rnicoll#calmar-mud,com">rnicoll#calmar-mud,com</a>, Fri 10 Jul 1998, 09:43 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00166" HREF="msg00166.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Massive brainstorm rant about an imaginary class system. (resent)</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 18:20 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00113" HREF="msg00113.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong>, cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 17:29 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00129" HREF="msg00129.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong>, Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 22:07 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00155" HREF="msg00155.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Fri 10 Jul 1998, 21:53 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00421" HREF="msg00421.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Wed 29 Jul 1998, 23:29 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00424" HREF="msg00424.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 30 Jul 1998, 01:00 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>