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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:15:14 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Wed 08 Jul, Jon A. Lambert wrote:
> On 3 Jul 98, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > The strange thing then is that so few people, on this list only Dr.Cat
> > that I know of, attempt to create a safer game environment, at the ex-
> > pense of some freedom of the players. Or am I being overly pessimistic
> > now?
> Perhaps. However assuming the answers to these problems lay in
> "coding" solutions may well turn off potential posters. I would
> imagine that many implementors of "safe" environments feel no
> compunction to "code" against abuse, they handle it through social
> interaction and written standards of conduct. Ignore, silence and
> banish are tools enough.
Not really I think, but this entire subject is being moved into another
thread (affordances and social method).
However to summarise the problem. Suppose I want to play a tailor, and
on the game this is a valid skill and feasible profession. So I set out
to learn the necessary skills with needle, cloth and dye and eventually
I set up a shop where players can purchase designer clothing. It earns
me enough to make a living and I get to talk to many players and get to
create new fashions which is what I wanted to do all along. So far this
is fine, but now comes along some player who decides that he wants my
money, or he does not like tailors or whatever. In short he attacks and
kills, steals my money and equipment. Obviously ignoring this player is
not going to do me much good. He may eventually get bored but by that
time my enjoyment in the game is thoroughly ruined. Fighting also isn't
an option as I am a tailor and do not know how to handle anything more
dangerous than a needle. Further, being a tailor I have no interest at
all in learning to fight. Assuming there are many players in the same
situation on that game what can we do? The only thing the current games
offer is attacking and killing the offending player, simply because to
fight is the only way the game provides to affect other players. Under
those circumstances you can not expect much of a society to develop. At
least not one that must resemble anything but a getto disrupted by gang
wars.
> > I dearly would like to discuss this topic as well, preferably under an-
> > other subject and concentrating on possible solutions rather than on the
> > problem which has over the time been beaten to death (if you forgive me
> > the very poor pun).
> > What mechanisms in reality control the rampaging warbands?
> Logistics, for one thing, and a good dose of fear of death and
> imprisonment.
> >I don't think
> > fear of punishment is an effective deterrent as (would be) criminals do
> > not rationaly compare risks and rewards. Instead the simply believe they
> > will not get caught.
> Well there are many different classes of criminals IRL. I think a
> taxonomy of mud "criminals" is also in order. To think that this
> anti-social behavior is solely a feature of the "clubs" suit of
> players is rather narrow. Do socializers perform violence?
Yes, or rather they use other ways to control each other. Which was if I
remember correctly what mr. Bartle really was talking about, clubs are
the players who want to control -other players- where spades (I believe)
are the players who want to control the game. The other two suits were
the players who wanted to interact with other players (hearts) or with
the game (diamonds). Killers and socialisers only come into existence in
games that focus around combat and where the primary means to control or
affect others is by attacking and killing them. On a non combat mush you
can see similar mechanisms revolving around influence and social circles
> > So what social, ethical, economical and other mech-
> > anisms keep the vast majority of people from taking what they please and
> > eliminate all who oppose them. And can similar mechanism be brought over
> > to the mud environment with its unique characteristics?
> Banishment == Death
> Suspension == Imprisonment
As JC Lawrence pointed out in the thread about dangerous lands and how
players dealt with that. Players who die will simply reincarnate, or if
that is too much of a hassle they will create a new character. Or they
will leave the game. PK players in generally are not attached to their
character beyond recognition. The only punishment 'killing' them has is
that they must bring a new character up to level to continue their game
and perhaps the hassle of explaining that KillerTWO is really the same
character as Killer.
> Taking my "MUD-dev list as mud" analogy to extrems, it seems to work
> here. There is significantly less "violence" on this mud than in the
> r.g.m.a. one. ;)
So, what is keeping it that way?
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00078" HREF="msg00078.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00034" HREF="msg00034.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 19:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00040" HREF="msg00040.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 01:54 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00047" HREF="msg00047.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 03 Jul 1998, 20:48 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00078" HREF="msg00078.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 08 Jul 1998, 07:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00123" HREF="msg00123.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 19:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 02:04 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00183" HREF="msg00183.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 12 Jul 1998, 22:41 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00201" HREF="msg00201.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 07:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00332" HREF="msg00332.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 24 Jul 1998, 20:44 GMT
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