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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:04:26 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
In <URL:<A HREF="news:local.muddev">news:local.muddev</A>> on Sat 22 Aug, Adam Wiggins wrote:
> No, when you're doing a full simulation, what we're talking about is the
> ability for one player to interfere with another player's game. Attacking
> and killing someone is only the most obvious of these.
Unfortunately yes. You can probably not entirely prevent this from
happening anyway, but somehow for a virtual society you need some
mechanism to prevent this from happening often or repeatedly.
> I will refer again to the Beartrap Example (now mentioned enough times
> that it is worthy of upper case):
> Buffy digs a hole in the forest. She takes ten very sharp swords and
> buries their hilts in the dirt at the bottom of the hole. Then she takes
> loose brush and leaves and covers the hole, concealing it.
> Three days later, Bubba is strolling along peacefully through the forest.
> He steps over the concealed pit, unaware of its existence. The brush
> cannot support his weight, so he falls and is impaled on the swords. He
> dies.
> Was this PKill? Did Buffy set the trap in hopes to catch herself a meal,
> or did she do it just to disrupt other players? Maybe she knew
> specifically that Bubba would be coming that way and that he wouldn't
> notice the pit?
As you mentioned this is convoluted and subtle. I guess the decision
is somewhere in the numbers. If it happens only once it probably was
an accident and should be treated as such. However if people are go-
ing about digging such deadly traps then it is PK. I do not think it
is possible to clearly make a distinction of this, and if there is a
society in the game it can decide for itself. Until that point this
is up to the game staff I think.
> These same ethics apply to a simulation mud. The problem, of course, is
> that the simulation is not yet complete enough to include all the devices
> (most imposed by society) which we have the real world. Thus, we are
> forced to seek out quick "fixes" to these dillemas.
This question really applies to any kind of mud. Are rule lawyers not
guilty of the same crime? E.g. you have a game that allows PK in some
areas and players are warned when they are about to enter such zone.
The game also allows to summon players to you. Is now the high level
player who summons newbies to a pk zone and slaughters them guilty of
pk? According to the rules he is not, but according to the gameplay
he obviously is. You don't need a very realistic simulation to create
a scenario like this.
> likely someone who is interested in purposely causing
> harm to other players will be put off by a game world where characters
> don't take damage or die.
Yes. A player with that kind of interest is unlikely to stick around
on a mud where he can not bully other players. People are rarely that
determined to mess up other's fun, unless they have a personal grudge
to the intended victim.
On a game where it is very easy to mess up somebody else you will see
more players who actually do so.
> The crux of the problem is that Marian and other players like her *don't*
> want this. She wants to play a tailor in a world that isn't necessarily
> 100% safe; where there are many other character types including fighters
> and thieves. What she doesn't want is her play regularly disrupted in a
> massive way by one of these character types with ill intent, usually
> someone seeking an easy target and a cheap thrill. I think she *does*
> enjoy the idea that occasionally someone might try to shoplift, or that a
> dragon might attack the town (to be challanged by the town's defenders, of
> course). This is the depth of play and game world that I think all of us
> here are interested in, whether or not we want to play violet character
> types.
Not so sure about the shoplifting but yes you are right here. It is
not the possible violence that I see as the big problem. I have pro-
blems with the fact that unless I turn into the same kind of fighter
I have no way to prevent it.
Things may be different in the US but in Europe weapons are rare and
people are not brought up with the idea to shoot at each other. Were
I live it is not naive. Shops do not need armed security personel or
guns.
It may well be that I am terribly naive here, but I really treasure
the idea that on a mud I were I am not a fighter I should not be ab-
le to fight just to be able to play that game. If there is a need of
protection on that game then it is up to the game to provide protec-
tion. Through social interactions, game laws, city guards and other
deterrants. Not to make the game hundred pct safe but simply to make
a game where it is possible to not be a fighter.
Marian. Who wonders if by now there is enough subject in this dis-
cussion to send a summary to the JOMR and if they would be
interested.
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00801" HREF="msg00801.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Adam Wiggins <adam#angel,com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00861" HREF="msg00861.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 13:19 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00796" HREF="msg00796.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
Jynx (Wyrm / Tygr / Myth) Ryn <a href="mailto:jynx_ryn#mindless,com">jynx_ryn#mindless,com</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 07:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00797" HREF="msg00797.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 13:12 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00801" HREF="msg00801.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Sat 22 Aug 1998, 02:19 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00826" HREF="msg00826.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 23 Aug 1998, 10:42 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00971" HREF="msg00971.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sun 06 Sep 1998, 17:51 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01027" HREF="msg01027.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 12 Sep 1998, 15:07 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
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</ul>
</ul>
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</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00724" HREF="msg00724.html">[MUD-Dev] Missing MUD-Dev post (fwd)</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 14 Aug 1998, 21:54 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00723" HREF="msg00723.html">[MUD-Dev] [Mud-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 14 Aug 1998, 21:46 GMT
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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