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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Adam Wiggins <<A HREF="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:44:40 -0700 (PDT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Shawn Halpenny wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 01:13:33PM -0700, Adam Wiggins wrote:
> > This is, IMO, a larger problem of establishing a frame of reference. You
> > need to do this for ALL elements in your world, not just numerical stats -
> > although those can be the easiest. For example:
> >
> > % stats
> > You are a female ogre.
> > You are very strong compared to most ogres.
> > You are very intelligent compared to most ogres.
>
> I've been thinking of maintaining a running, weighted average across all
> (N)PCs' numerical attributes to give the frame of reference needed to
> output something like that as well. I suppose there would be a sort of
> master ogre object that simply exists to collect and average the stats
> for ogres and is compared against whenever an ogre is statted.
>
> Given that, however, I'm not sure how to justify: The world is full of
> newbie ogres (i.e. most with low stats). Bubba has already been playing
> his ogre for a while, so he's very strong compared to most other ogres.
> He doesn't login for 4 months, but the majority of the other PC ogres are
> avid players and considerably advance their characters in his absence.
> When Bubba returns he discovers instantaneously (at least, as soon as he
> first stats himself) that he is no longer very strong compared to most
> ogres.
The problem now being tackled is determining what "...compared to most X"
actually *means*. Typically, and this is what I was thinking of in the
example above, it's a hard-coded statistic of the game world that ogres
have an average strength of (say) 23 - in fact, your ogre's stats were
probably rolled based on this number. (Ie, all newbie ogres get a
strength of +- 7 from the game average, or perhaps +- 30%.)
So if you'd like to get rid of this magic constant and instead have a
fluctuating sense of what "strong" actually means, you need to store it
somewhere else. What you suggest here is simply changing that value (23,
above) from a constant to a variable (a calculated average, to be exact).
Now you ask - do newbies get their strength rolled based on that number?
(ie, +- 30% of the calculated average, or the original constant, 23?) If
so, this works as a feedback loop - working up your ogre's strength
slightly increases the strength of all newbie ogres created. If you don't
do this, then newbies will be quite confused, since they create their
characters based on that original constant; thus:
Character Creation: Buffy the Ogre
Enter your strength (23 is average for an ogre): 25
Okay, you are two points stronger than the average ogre.
Welcome to the game.
% stats
You are slightly weak for an ogre.
Another possibility, of course, is JC's method: you only compare to what
you know. Thus, the magic constant (23) is considered the weighted
average of all typical ogres whom the character "grew up" with (meaning:
had contact with before the player took control of them, in childhood or
whatever). Thus at the start they will compare themselves to this number.
As time goes on, they meet other ogres. If they hang around with the
Elite Ogre Weightlifting Club all the time, their perception of the
"average" ogre strength will rise. If they hang around with the Elite
Ogre Chess Team all the time, their perception will probably drop. Thus,
the player who had logged off for four months and then back in would still
think themselves just as strong as when they left:
Welcome to the game! It's been 4 months, 3 days, and 7 hours since you
last played.
% stats
You are a superbuff ogre.
Bubba says, "Wanna armwrestle?"
% armwrestle bubba
You and Bubba armwrestle.
He easily wrests your arm to the table.
% stats
You are very buff for an ogre.
Boffo says, "Ooo, me next"
% armwrestle boffo
You and Boffo armwrestle.
He easily wrests your arm to the table.
% stats
You are buff for an ogre.
..etc. If this keeps up, you'll eventually think you're a wimp. Of
course, is this *really* reflective of the playerbase? Who knows. Maybe
Bubba, Boffo, and their buddies are genetically enhanced ogres created by
your arch-nemesis to fool you into thinking you're really weak. Or maybe
the playerbase as a whole has just gotten stronger. Or maybe someone cast
a weakness spell on you. So while this makes more sense at a high level,
it's probably going to be pretty confusing and possibly quite frustrating
to players, especially those obsessed with their stats.
> While the situation is not technically a problem it implies the existence
> of some master stat keeper, external to characters, that I'd rather they
> not be aware of. Ideally, Bubba should be his own master stat keeper
> and the averages should only be adjusted and based on other ogres with whom
> Bubba is frequently in contact with. However, I don't want to have to
> track all that information.
If you already have character memory then it's no big deal - just a few
extra bytes. But there are a myriad of different formulas you could use
to actually come up with Buffy's perception of her strength, which can be
wildly different with the exact same numbers. (ie, is the average more
influenced by the amount of time you spend with each ogre, or by the
number that you've come in contact with at all?)
> Any opinions on how the storage requirements of the second choice would
> compare against the information overexposure of the first? I suspect a
> number of people would be bothered by the first once they realized that's
> how it works...
I'd say it's highly dependant on the rest of the mud. Dynamic perceptions
*could* fit in - for instance, I imagine such fluxuations would fit in
well on JC's server, which thrives on such things. On your average LP, I
imagine such a thing would be a lot of work and the players would hate it.
Adam
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<li><strong><A NAME="00215" HREF="msg00215.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch...</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00211" HREF="msg00211.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Holly Sommer <hsommer#micro,ti.com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00207" HREF="msg00207.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Shawn Halpenny <malachai#iname,com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
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<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00197" HREF="msg00197.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 21:46 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00198" HREF="msg00198.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 23:16 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00207" HREF="msg00207.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 19:12 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00208" HREF="msg00208.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 19:44 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00209" HREF="msg00209.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 20:45 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00211" HREF="msg00211.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Holly Sommer <a href="mailto:hsommer#micro,ti.com">hsommer#micro,ti.com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 21:17 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00212" HREF="msg00212.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 22:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00213" HREF="msg00213.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Holly Sommer <a href="mailto:hsommer#micro,ti.com">hsommer#micro,ti.com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 22:35 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00214" HREF="msg00214.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 23:42 GMT
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